Wow. A company that pays people for the work they do.

"There are managers being paid less than the people they manage"

At last, common sense.

Now phone and Internet bills will increase, that's great.

Unions are a relic of the past - and part of a broken mindset that people "deserve" a job and are entitled to share in company profits (i.e. bigger revenue = bigger salary) wrong. Unions drive up prices to the average household and are just as greedy as BigCorp and when the time comes they'll be some of the first against the wall.

...but with regard to

Unions are a relic of the past - and part of a broken mindset that people "deserve" a job and are entitled to share in company profits

I think you'll find they're part of a seemingly obsolete mindset that says you're entitled not to be fucked up the arse by the people you work for.

I really despise some of the "Pavlov's frothing dogs" who comment on these pages.

"Wow. A company that pays people for the work they do."

Unfortunately this is all due to BT freezing the Manager's pay for 5 years since they "didn't have enough money to pay for wage increases". So the employee's have now finally crept past the managers (since they were underpaid too and only just being "wage-adjusted" - they have a better union too - there are 2 inside BT). They've now started to try and change it through some awful personal table of feel-good HR goals (like "HEART" - "I want to show that BT has a heart" - Try proving *that* from your years work) so that if you were an absolute paragon of hard-work, inspiring moral rectitude and didn't mind not seeing your family for weeks on end then you might get a 2% increase. Anyone less than that will get nothing.

Inspire anyone to do really hard work in fucked up demoralising culture like BT? Or to quit and get a better job elsewhere?

Yes, I've never understood why they get paid more nowadays.

I can see how historically people may have more respect for being under someone higher up the pay scale but now it just breeds resent particularly when they're not as useful or competent.

Essentially nowadays many managers are overpaid secretaries/PAs in that all they do is organised schedules for the people who actually do the work. It makes much more sense to have the skilled people manage themselves which good people are more than capable of doing but provide them with a cheap secretary/PA to manage their diaries rather than spend 3x, 4x, 5x, or even more on a manager that really offers no more benefits than the secretary.

This looks like a forward thinking intelligent move by BT, only a union could see it otherwise.

It's almost every company that has split from them as well is still effected by the choices they made as the unions at the spawn of BT just followed their lead...

I am a BT manager and can confirm that the pay system for managers is a shambles. Lots of people get no pay rise year after year. Senior managers get well looked after but the ordinary manager working 50 or 60 hours a week at the coal face gets shafted. Morale is at rock bottom. This industrial action is long overdue.

"you're entitled not to be fucked up the arse by the people you work for"

Well, then you find a new employer who treats you better. It's pure insanity that employees think they have the right to not work because they don't like their job/pay/conditions, etc...

It's generally only under-skilled, easily replaced people who can't find another job, and generally those same under-skilled people that think unions and union "actions" are OK.

We stopped taking government contracts many years ago because we don't recognize the right of workers to strike, and we don't hire people who were part of a union at their last job. We are far better off for it and in fact, we have picked up multiple contracts due to this philosophy. We believe that the union mentality stifles creativity (i.e. someone did something outside their job description and even though it was a great idea a grievance is filed) and creates a lax atmosphere where people can louse about and let things hang because something they know needs corrected is not part of their job description.

"It makes much more sense to have the skilled people manage themselves"

Yes. You are absolutely correct.

Doesn't deserve his pay.

I mean I spend half my time reading el reg.

a company that pays based on skills.. maybe I underestimated BT.

When I was working in Cananda I normally took home paycheques that were bigger than my manager. He was paid on a salary and I was hourly. The difference is he would never work more than roughly 48Hr weeks, while I was working between 70-80Hr weeks, that includes overtime, holiday pay and stuff.

More and more places are realising this, for instance many IT departments I have contracted in have had an IT Administrator which more like a PA than a secretary, although not technical that person feels empowered doing their organising and administering (at a higher career level than simply low level secretarial or similar) while protecting non-tech users/staff from some of the more beardy nerds.

If being a manager's so easy, then why stay technical? It amazes me that people think that managers are stupid/not interested in people/just filling in the paperwork and that engineers are somehow a superior form of life - everyone's just trying to get along, do what they need to do and be happy at work. There are useless people in every type of job - I've met great engineers, mediocre engineers, great managers and mediocre managers.

If you are not happy with your management, then you can always work to become a manager so that you can improve the lot for your colleagues. If you want to maintain "engineering purity" by staying technical then accept that you will be managed, sometimes well and sometimes badly. If you're unhappy - move - both managers and staff - don't just moan about pay or lack of recognition. Do something about it!

</rant>

Ahh... that's better... I'm off to my happy place now

I hope you are not in the UK. If you are you have a BIG law suit comming you way when someone works that out.

I do agree with you in alot of cases that Unions are out of date and wrong (there are a few cases where they are still needed, like Teachers. I dont agree with there recent action, but if someone has been doing a job for 30 years, and there is no other job they can go to, then they do need that kinde of back up)

BT manager's salaries are less than us front line guys... but, they get hefty bonus's depending on how well their staff, their stats etc perform...

And they get medical-aid paid for too... Now... the guys who are out working on the roads, up poles, down manholes taking risks (albeit assesed risks lol) etc dont...

Doesnt add up. trust me, i know...

and our union (CWU) are crap, we recently lost a vote to change our working hours (startin/finishing later) and the union didnt bugger all (again, big surprise) and to add insult to injury, people who wernt going to be effected by the change were allowed to vote too,and they voted in favour... ... ... ... now rumour has it, that the union has no real power anyway; and they cant afford to fall out with Big BT, cos then who would pay their expenses, their hotels, milage and bacon rolls ??????

...er... About 12 years ago, the large FMCG IS dept I worked in realised that company pay scales didn't fit in with market trends for IS staff. So they created a subset of the pay grades specifically for IS. It meant we techies were paided in 'manager money and perks'. And probably pissed off the marketing dept.

Shouldn't that be a law by now? Tech people are different, so tech jobs should be remunerated differently to 'ordinary' jobs.

Any techie that wants a manager job isn't a real techie. If anything, he (or she) only would vie for a management postion because in most companies it would mean more money. And so become a rubbish middle-manager who doesn't deserve the money, and who gather a lot of criticism.

Bill doesn't care about money.

No business can work efficiently, provide excellent service to customers, great products, and have a highly skilled work force if the pay structure is not set out in clear terms for all who work there, it really is that simple!

The difference in wages between a member of staff on the frontline dealing with customers 37hrs a week on the phones, and their team manager should not be that great as most managers in call centres in particular do less work, dont know as much as the staff they are meant to 'manage' and therefore should not have a massive jump in wages, a rise should be there as this is an incentive for personal development within a company and working up the company ladder.

THERE MOST CERTAINTLY SHOULD NOT BE A DIFFERENCE IN SALARY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN WORKING THE SAME JOB, THE SAME HOURS, FOR THE SAME COMPANY - AFTERALL WE LIVE IN THE 21ST CENTURY FOR FUCK SAKE, EQUAL PAY FOR EITHER SEX!!!!!!!

"We stopped taking government contracts many years ago because we don't recognize the right of workers to strike, and we don't hire people who were part of a union at their last job." Interesting information, what organisation do you work for so that I can avoid giving you any business as you clearly dont give a f*ck about your most valuable asset, your employees. Disgruntled employees do a bad job, happy employees do a good job and are more willing to go the extra mile for the customer i.e. me.

I'm in a ethical quandary here about where to stand..

I hate Unions, particularly trade-unions. At least, I hate the "image" of them; John Prescott sums up the stereotypical Union man. Unions have a nasty tendency to become avenues for under-skilled annoying people who would otherwise spend the better days of their lives cleaning the lavs to get power and wealth beyond their imaginings. They then piss it all away by striking a company to death over some stupid inconceivably insipid "dispute" that no-one really cares about. They then go become an MP (for Labour, natch).

But on the other hand, Unions are an essentially part of the checks and balances that form industry. Without Unions and the political power they heft (because one disgruntled worker can be sacked; 3 million of them and you have to listen), industry would still be merrily employing 5 year olds to clean it's chimneys, asbestos would be a normality, pay rises every year would be a total no-no, and in general the worker would be arse-raped for every single hour of every single day (yeah, 48 hour weeks wouldn't fly either)...

I tend to side with Unions in disputes, as long as the workers themselves seem fairly angry; otherwise it's probably just a case of Union-Man-Wants-To-Be-Noticed.

And on the profit-sharing thing..

Why not? Companies exist to provide a service and generate income in return. If that income isn't then shared with the people that helped create it, then what's it for? Are companies then just vehicles so rich directors can become even richer from the blood, sweat and tears of their minions? I don't believe that's right. A company, after re-investing it's profits where it needs to, should then share it's profits with it's people; everyone should share in the good fortune of the company. After all, everyone loses out if the company goes downhill; wages et cut, executives lose perks, shareholders lose dividends. Surely then if the company's doing well, then when it comes to hand out the profits, surely the shareholders should see rewards, and so the executives, but also the common workers.

That's fair.

Actually David "Dave" Cameron?

Actually our employees are some of the happiest I have ever met. Non customer facing staff are allowed to come-and-go as they please, we contribute $1.65 per dollar to their retirement accounts, we even buy them baseball and hockey tickets (for family too), their vacation time is a base two weeks and additional time is added (in addition to cash bonuses) based on their impact to the bottom line (early completion, value/feature add, etc...) and they have 100% health insurance.

Sure some of the techies have to work 50+ hours a week, but they are compensated for it, and are obviously quite happy as we haven't had an employee quit in almost two years.

We have a decent sized team and have gone out of our way to change accepted "management best practices", and it works. If your employer wants to keep doing things the way they've always been done that's fine - if you don't agree find a new employer, simple as that. Unions, old management, and hugely hierarchical businesses are a thing of the past and are doomed to die as the younger generation of people enter the workforce and expect a freer job/lifestyle where their creativity can shine and they have a career path based on accomplishment, not seniority.

As a friend once said, "You can do a job for 30 years and some kid can come along and do it better after six months. That kid deserves more as you've had 30 years to figure out how to do it better, but you didn't."

i.e. Same job does not mean the same pay for everyone.

She also said "You can do a job for 30 years a suck at it the whole time."

And that's the end of my comments about unions.

I was going to make a trite comment about the people who earn the money getting paid, and the managers merely pushing pens... but that seems to be adequately covered above. Instead I thought of... "pot on offer" and reckon maybe this is a good company to work for.

However, when I read, "The union's first action is calling on members to work to rule, not to travel or be contactable outside their contracted hours" - oh how we laughed... they can't be contacted during their contracted hours.

And then I saw that pathetic kneejerk pavlovian reply and so I find myself now saying... @ AJ - ONLY IF THEY CAN DO EXACTLY THE SAME JOB, EQUALLY WELL, EQUALLY QUICKLY - now get back to the bloody sink!

Ah, non European then - that explains it.

In the UK, I have voted Conservtive all my life, and yet after being made redundant twice in my life by sheer incompetance and greed of those who owed/ran the companies.

Never again will I walk away with pennies in the pound on what I am due because I coudn't afford a lawyer

i deal with BT on a nearly daily basis and i have to say that most of them dont deserve a salary - they wont even get a job working for anyone else. now, some of the guys at the bottom level (some techies) are actually fairly decent but their managers are useless twats.

example of a phone call:

me: can you unlock x phone for international please

bt: erm... goes off for 5 mins... it appears you didnt pay last months bill in entirety... so we cannot

me: sigh, this is the 3rd this month. the reason we pay you 80% of the bill is that you STILL havent got our account sorted and owe US £4k due to misselling, incompetence and various other reasons due to each of your thousand departments not being able to talk to each other

BT: oh <sigh> <goes off to talk to line manager> ok then

LOOP

i feel for the decent people who work for a beurocratic useless company. our account manager is a lovely bloke who is just snowed by idiocy and beurocracy

@Solomon Grundy - "their vacation time is a base two weeks" - wtf? 50 weeks on, 2 weeks off - wtf kind of company is that? in the uk the minimum (i think) is 20 days

the thing about pay is that not all job vacancies are equal. at my old place 2 of the techies (doing same job) were wildly out of sync with each other. the reason? one was unemployed and really needing a position that plenty of people went for. the other guy was the only guy worth employing and was working at another company - so he bargained a better deal. now, should worker one suddenly get a massive pay rise or worker 2 get a pay decrease? why should a company suddenly give someone a load more cash? just 'cos another worker is paid that?

same thing happened a couple of years ago. i stared a company on a low salary - worked there learning and ended up having the largest skill set of anyone in the dept. but was the lowest paid due to low starting salary. then they need to fill a developer position, employ someone with a very small skillset on way more cash than me... so.... i threatened to leave... waited 6 months then did - got myself a 30% pay rise and now earn pots more cash than anyone from the old company and do a piece of piss job... muhahahaw :)

Before the manager vs worker debate gets carried away, Connect doesn't just represent managers, it represents individuals such as architects, consultants, that are not covered by CWU. Although it seems like Connect have also forgotten that fact, or their spokesperson has been badly briefed...

Two weeks is the standard professional vacation time in the U.S.

Low level people only get one week and many do not get that. Vacation time is not required by law here. Two weeks plus performance based vacation days like we offer is a huge benefit.

There are allowances for certain things that vary state-by-state (pregnancy, sick, bereavement leave, etc...) and those things may, or may not, be included in alloted vacation time.

It's a regular occurrence for jobs to offer no insurance, no sick leave, and no vacation time. You can actually go bankrupt in short order if you get sick here.

Thanks man... :-D

Thats another reason why america sucks so bad.... (y)

Ill just add that to my VERY long list!

1. Equal Pay - The equal pay act was passed 38 years ago, well before most people now working started their careers. It is DIABOLICAL that women therefore, are still earning much less then men especially in a former national company like BT.

2. Managers being paid less then their direct reports. In a company like BT, there are several layers of management, and it's the managers on the bottom rungs of the ladder who are getting shafted. In BT, the vast majority of the lower levels of manager have been promoted from the staff,especially in non-IT, i.e. CUSTOMER FACING ROLES and then stuck on the same salary for 4-5 years. In the meantime, their staff has over taken them in terms of salary.

3. In the IT professional roles, there are few non-CONNECT represented grades, so no (2) is less of a problem but no (1) is more pronounced, and they too have been stuck getting either no increases or less then inflation for more then this century.

Also comparisions with the US have no business here.

The BT Spokesman reported that the 4.3% on offer was fair in the current climate, what he doesn't mention is

the 15-20% gender pay gap which some of this is supposed to correct,

the 40-50% of lower level managers who will get no increase at all,

the fiddling of the bonus scheme which adjusts AFTER year end,

the amount of work going offshore,

the amount that will be siphoned off to (fat cat) senior managers in very decent increases.

And no, I no longer work for BT but still have a lot of friends and colleagues who I would support up to the hilt!!!!

Salary should be a direct reflection of contribution to the bottom line of the business. If you don't grow the bottom line, why should the company grow your salary? Sex doesn't matter - if you don't make a difference, you don't make a difference.

Comparisons with the US have business everywhere - in case you hadn't noticed... When there is a business problem here, it's felt the world over, which makes it somewhat important.

I'm a software person in BT - have been for 20 years - COBOL, C, C++, Java, etc, etc, etc. I am a member of Connect (like most IT techs in BT) and voted for industrial action - not something that I did lightly but basically the company has been pissing us about to an ever increasing extent for years and this is the final straw.

Quite amazing to see here how people let their prejudices about BT, management and unions get in the way of the facts! And interesting to see how many people have time to post during the working day - every IT pro that I know in BT is absolutely swamped with work, so few people have time to take a tea break let along peruse the delights of The Reg.

Let's get back to reality:

1. Most of the people we're talking about here (who some have derided as 'managers') are actually just ordinary workers - IT, project management, testing, network design, field engineering. We are in the management pay structure because that's the way the company chooses to organise itself. Being in the management pay structure brings a bonus (typically 7.5% on target) but removes the opportunity for paid overtime. Not a fair exchange in my view given the number of extra hours that are worked.

2. The BT 'management' (which includes 'professional') pay system goes right the way up so we're in the same pay system as the fat cat senior managers. The people who run the pay system have (because the thing is so bloody lax and open to abuse) control over where the money goes. Who do you think runs the pay system - yes, it's the fat cat senior managers who are in the same pay system. So the bastards mark each other with top performance marks and then use this as justification to give themselves the maximum possible pay rises, thus stealing money from the people doing the real work. Bloody scandalous.

3. The BT pay system is wide open to abuse. I have a 'Good' performance rating and am quite near the bottom of my pay scale. So what's my pay rise this year then? Well BT has published a thing (which the union rightly refuses to accept) which says it's "in the range 2% to 8% subject to management discretion". What sort of discretion is that FFS - seems more like a free for all to me. I'm not a blue eyed boy so I'll probably get 2% or slightly above. This happens year after year - a pay cut in real terms for someone who is near the bottom of their pay scale (and the bloody scales hardly ever go up either). People higher up the scales do even worse - pay freeze year after year.

4. There are very few 'bog standard managers' in BT. Why would BT need them and what would they do if they were here? It's a technology company so managers can't survive if they can't grasp the technology. BT is not selling baked beans. Managers in BT are in my experience generally pretty good because (1) they have come up through the ranks so know what the job is like on the grond and (2) they are unionised and so are more likely to have the confidence to stand up for us ordinary punters in response to the shit that comes down from on high.

5. Why don't I leave and go somewhere else? Good question (as I could walk into another job tomorrow) and one that I have pondered on many occasions. Answer is

(a) I don't want to work in a non-unionised company. A lot of what I see elsewhere tells me that IT people in non-unionised companies get treated like shit. Our US colleagues above are a shining example of this but we have examples closer to home as well.

(b) The work is good (even though BT is doing its best to offshore anything vaguely interesting), you won't get working on more challenging projects anywhere else in the industry.

(c) Because the company is SO DAMN BIG I have the ability to move between projects and roles reasonably easily without changing employer. Also lots of overseas opportunities on secondment which is quite attractive if you get fed up listening to all the miseryguts in the UK.

So, let's be clear, BT is hugely profitable but despite this insists on giving derisory pay increases to its ordinary IT and tech workers. But fortunately those people are unionised and have some backbone so are prepared to do something about it. Sounds completely reasonable to me.

Connect represents managers & professionals, ie real techies who get their hands dirty. Not only has BT stuffed them on pay, but continually threaten them with jobs cuts, as 10,000's of jobs go off shore - there are 1000's on on shore sub contractors as well - It's not the members of Connect or the CWU that BT to the position it has, low morale, poor customer service, it is those fat cats that over the last few years have wasted billions the tie up with MCI, 22 billion on a 3 g licences & gave it away to O2, leaving BT will billions of debt. No wonder Telephonica can afford to give the Connect members in)2 a decent pay rise.

Many, many BT people have give 30 years plus service to BT & it's customer, unlike the Jonny come lately fat cats who come & go. We have had enough it is time to fight

Spot on BT tech head,let's tell them a little more about the BT Pay System/Reward Framework/Pay Matrix shall we?

This sytem provides a indicator of expected pay rise against a performance rating and current position within the pay range for the current job role with the performance ratings ranging from Needs Improvement, Good, Very Good, Outstanding.

Now believe it or not it is possible to receive a mark of outstanding and because of your current position in the pay range receive a 0% pay rise!

How's that for motivation to work hard and be rewarded for it!

How is your performance marked -well may you ask! You would think that your performace is rated by your manager and forwarded for translation into the Pay Matrix -think again. There is now a levelling exercise which although the very top people deny it, distributes the markings to match a distribution curve to give a certain % of needs improving, good etc. So your manager could mark you as Very Good but you end up with a Good after HR have met the distribution curve ( HR by the way are a contracting company-so that should tell you where their priorities lie). I have recently been told that we have 'too many Very Goods, you must re assess your markings to have a less Very Good and more Goods' I refused.

Oh and one last important thing only 'managers' have to go through this process of justifying their existence and pay, on the ground engineers are represented by a different union who bargain collectively for their members whose pay is not performance related ( but that is the next stunt BT want to pull). Their Union regularly gets them 3-4% pay rises, whilst as Bt tech head rightly says many managers if they are lucky get 1-2% or 0% as many have for many years. BT are nothing but a bunch of lying bastards oh how I wish you could see some of the stuff on the internal websites. Ben V has just presided over the worst period I have known in the company and don't believe a word about 21CN either its a f******g disaster!!!!!!

There are two sides to every story, lsten to both before making comment.

I've recently got out of BT as i was sick of the fact that even people were paid and promoted not on ability but on how long they had worked there. Unions in most places are a thing of the past (teachers and a few other places are exceptions) but BT is a business and should work like any other business i.e. if you cant do the work you get fired and if your good at your work then you get paid accordingly.

I am young but since i left BT i've been promoted twice (in 3 months) and seen my salary rise a little more than 4%!!! The way i look at it is that its BT's fault that they lost me and thats not arrogance but when i left one of the senior managers even said they didn't want to loose me but couldn't up my wage as his hands were tied.

As for the women vs men thing - its simple pay should be based on ability not age, sex, race or how long you've been in a company.

This action will probably delay the refund BT have promised me for illegally charging me £137 for a cancellation within their cancellation time (for a service that was free for a year and £1.50 a month thereafter).

Still, it'll mean they have my money in their bank gaining interest and so helps the global economy. To believe otherwise would paint BT as an incompetent, thieving bunch of illiterates.

Illiterates? I got an email stating I "have a strong removed which should be removed ...". Most reassuring!

Thank God(s) I didn't go with them for broadband!

Unions - I have been a union member and currently a non-union member.

Questions

Is there a need for unions in the 21st Century? NO

With all the laws/legislation [UK/European] theer is more than enoyugh protection for individuals.

Can the Unions offer job security - NO

They can only influance £, hours and holidays [offer legal advise if it suites them].

If you look around the UK today there are a number of organisations either on strike or about to take industrial action.

Who will loose by this? you the members not the unions.

If a company wants to down size [redundantances] or move to another location - can the Union change this NO.

Example car industry, Call centres etc

hmmm you say:

"With all the laws/legislation [UK/European] theer is more than enoyugh protection for individuals."

How do you think these laws got enacted? It certainly wasn't due to individuals writing to their MP. It was because Unions provided the backing for political parties which promoted workers rights. Traditionally that was the Labour Party (the hint is in the name there buddy).

Now we have 'Nu Labour' who don't give a flying fuck about the people and are prepared to tax the shit out of the poor and look more and more like Tories.

If anything we need to collectively protect workers rights more than ever.

I think the real issue people have with unions is that, much like political parties, they have forgotten what they are there for. My father was a senior union leader for years until he realised that at the highest levels they are like any other organisation and are there for their own self preservation. They were prepared to shaft other unions to build their own status and would sell out their own members when there was some larger political gain to be had.

damned if you do, damned if you don't

Sorry didnt realise you were a Yank which expains everything, please dont carpet bomb my civilian population for no apparent reason.

If they pay people with skills more than useless managers then I'll go work for 'em

Where do you apply to?

My experience of BT managers in Wholesale and other divisions is that yes compared with similar or identical roles in the marketplace they are grossly underpaid. As an example I worked for them temporarilly in a management role and was paid £40k+ whilst their equivalent permie manager was on £28k or much less in many instances. I wasnt able to work for them because they pay too low.

That said I have years of experience were as many of those who were perm had come through the engineering ranks and have only ever known BT as an environment to work for and have little skills or experience to really manage staff and workload any other way as they have merely been left to learn it without clear guidance from anyone who has experience to support them and to learn from (Seniors who also came through the ranks).

Some of them had MBA's (Maybe Best Avoided).

A number of managers I saw were cheating the system, would blame every man and his dog to detract attention from them and their areas, used the Unions (Don't start me on that one) when they didn't get their own way, said one thing in public and slated it the next when no one was looking, many are poor managers who would not listen to the real experts and would not engage with them - the staff!

Thats typical of the "Command and Control" management environment and style, merely taught to manage bad practice over and over again under a quality umbrella like Six Sigma (TQM on steroids).

They even use balanced Scorecarding in some areas - that sums it up, give the staff the ability to cheat to meet a stat as that keeps them from being given a 1-1 and performance improvement (Who ever came up with that idea should be sent offshore!)

Do I blame those managers - Absolutely not because some were hard working, tried their best. I blame the numbskulls above them who don't listen are scared of change and manage by statistics as it keeps the attention away from them. If its failing put more bums on seats and meet a stat. Absolutely disgraceful in my experience.

The workers should get a good pay deal because they do the work and they understand (Or should) customer demand and can actually do something about delivering it. The managers need to go back to that ethic and get rid of the common practice of rule by stats if they really want a valuable pay increase that merits it based upon reward for hard work.

I have little sympathy for those who wouldn't have the balls to challenge their system those who did merely end up ground down like the rest eventually, some to their absolute credit still plug away. The real losers in all this are the customers - sadly!Will BT learn? Clearly not from what I've seen in the last 30 years nor do I see it in the future either.

Unless they go back to basics get rid of the biggest proportion of their heirachy, the spin doctors, quality management fools and start to listen to their customers and staff that do the work.

As the song says "Your the devil in disguise".

Dude,

trust me, u really dont wanna do that... read the posts, same thing for us poor openreach guys, and theres romours our new bean counter (generic word for bastards) CEO is planning on selling us? omg...

the thought of working for fujitsu / seimens / etc... sounds better the more i tihnk about it lol....

I work for a lagre company (much bigger than BT) on the front line (so to speak), and I get paid more doing what I do than if I were to take the next step up the career ladder. This is because I know more about the actual job I do than some managers, who do not deal with the technology and services we offer on a daily basis. Every year, as individuals, we get graded on our performance and this then determines the pay rise we get.

If you dont like the way you are being "shafted" and you know your stuff, then there are other companies out there who once they realise your potential (so you have to sell yourself to them) and how fantastic you are, would bite your hand off just to get your CV on their "looking for a job" list, and would pay you a good wage for doing the job with some good perks as well.

Its no good sitting and moaning about it, and going on strike, get up, stand up and make sure that your managers can see you on your breaks and lunch looking at jobs websites, reading the jobs pages, and making phone calls about jobs (also if you fancy a random day off, remember to put in the reason for requesting it that you are going job hunting or going for an interview)

Paris, because she knows all about moaning.......

Since 2000 every non-Manager and non-Professional in BT has had a 30% pay rise as well as increases of around 5% each year until they reach the maximum for their grade.

The majority of Managers and professionals will be lucky if they have had a total increase in that time of 15%. Many will have had less.

The other workers as the "engine" of BT have more instant muscular industrial clout, reinforced perhaps by the entirely co-incidental burnings which occur when BT talks really tough with them.

What is amazing is the loyalty shown by the "managers" especially those who can give substance to the shambles and subterfuges, which regularly occur and are only hinted at by the press.

"The BT tech head" view reflects that of many competent "managers" who really ought to be bailing out but can not people can be so badly treated.

Performance in BT has always been of the brown nose variety with some fist waving to encourage the reticent to see their "failings".

See http://www.payfair.org/ to learn more.

There are large parts of BT where the experienced and long term staff are merely treading water doing just enough to get by, keeping their heads below the radar taking whatevers thrown at them (Crap as it might be) and adding little value to BT just so they can get that extra few months or years service before trying to get release and going with a big wad of cash. Quite a few of those people will tell you it's their service and they've earned it (Well I'd hate to see those who havent if this is the example).

I witnessed so many of these neandrethals and it was disgusting to see. They have absolutely no loyalty to the company, used the unions constantly to bemoan their lot yet did not and never would have the intelligence to really make a difference.

Equally there were those who are very proactive, want to help customers and the business yet are strangled from doing so by these idiots and management who are clueless. It's like the blind leading the blind.

The senior management team in BT need a good kick up the backsides, they need to be taken back to basics if they are to really transform. They need to get rid of the unionised mentality, stop putting compliance and similar in front of getting the job done and sort the mess out. Start talking to your people who do the job daily, let them show you how to get it right - They know how if only you would give them credit to do it and take the shackles off them.