Or is there something wrong here, hypocritical, even?

Makes me think of 'vegetarian sausages' - why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?

This isn't the same Oregon man who was stripped by Craigslist looters, I take it?

I think I'll settle with " who's your daddy?".

I really really dislike having a very visual imagination!

Steve Jobs? Well some on, it's a bald head that looks like it's about to enter or exit a hole!

Yea, the kind of family that CBS does a 7 part mini-series on. God that child is going to have such a hard life.

It's a woman giving birth, not a man.

and quacks like a duck...then it's a duck!

As title :)

According to society - man, according to nature - woman.

Not really as big a story as the media are making it out to be, though in fairness to ElReg at least they mentioned the word "Transgender" in the headline, as opposed to "Nostradamus rolls in his grave! Man is pregnant! World gone mad!".

"g e" hit the nail on the head for me - I find it very peculiar that a woman living as a man would seek to bear a child?

Seriously, aside from the pronouns and the religious nutjobs, where's the problem with a woman who transgendered to a man to carry and give birth to a child? I'd call it good foresight that he kept his womb.

Granted if I was a doctor and this pair walked into my office I'd blink a few times and ask a lot of curious questions. But thats because I'm bloody curious.

Where's the IT angle though? :p

So gender is a state of mind and biology is not relevant?

Just where would one draw the line and say, "beyond this point, there is nothing wrong with your body, it's your mind that needs help?"

Couples like this are very selfish in their desire to have kids, they don't think about what it will be like for a young child growing up with a transexual parent..

Kids can be very cruel, and as soon as other schoolkids get wind of the situation, this child is in for a very unpleasant schooling.

"why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?"

A interesting philosophical question...but how do you know that the transgender subject of the article is a vegetarian?

Surely there's a great big c**k at the exit port.

I'm, like, 50 miles off-topic here but here goes: the sausage is a convenient form. Fits nicely into hot dog buns, easy to slice to add meaty chunks to pasta dishes, can be sliced in half for sandwiches, and so on.

Plus, most vegetarians aren't objecting to the taste of meat, it's the inherent death that they're averse to.

-- Creature.

How did the wife produce sperm??? I'm presuming she's a true XX.

Who is Eric Cartman's father?

Basically she didnt want to become a man and get her bits cut out 10 years ago and opted for the meat and 2 plastic ball options "Just incase she needed the female bits again in the future"

I mean how the hell can she be legally classified as a bloke? Was the doctor blind or just stupid. If you want the deciding factor in this argument......She is having a baby.....so she is NOT a bloke/ever was a bloke and never will be.

Sounds like someone was trying to make a story out of nothing.

The fact of the matter is though, Kids will be cruel no matter what, if its not Transgender parents it'll be something else. Either he'll be at the top of the pile and bullying the other kids, or he'll be at the bottom of the pile and being bullied by other kids. Law of the Jungle I'm afraid.

Kids are bitches, but they grow up eventually.

Given that a lot of the family don't know, why would the child?

I read the headline (also heard it on the radio) "man pregnant...etc"

Erm.. no

Just because (s)he is legally a man they were not born so and still obviously have all the organs to become pregnant (as (s)he has) So infact its not a man about to give birth its a woman who had a semi-sex change who is about to give birth. Who cares.

Apart from the fact that that child is going to have the hardest life ever.

"Couples like this are very selfish in their desire to have kids, they don't think about what it will be like for a young child growing up with a transexual parent.."

If everyone followed this then people wouldn't have girls in case they experience sexism, Asians wouldn't have kids in case they experience racism etc etc. You can't say someone isn't entitled to a child because they might get bullied. It doesn't make sense.

If all our parents "thought about the child suffering" hardly anyone of us would have been born.

...that this gal comes from *Bend*? Seriously. It doesn't get any better.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to head into Asshole to get some groceries.

@mark_t : please study transgenderism a little, examinate more deeply what gender dysphoria is, and come back with a brain. thanks.

and for all the "heterosexual couple is teh norm" over here. we don't speak of 'mother' and 'father' but of 'feminine referent' and 'male referent'. a woman can be a male referent, that has never been proved a problem.

</psychologist ranting>

aside from that, if this kind of event were to be more common place, perhaps we could push more openmindness in the usual normative nutjobs (be them religious or whatever else). kind of a good non-news :)

haven't any of you guys dreamt to give birth ? pregnancy would even give them a look at how bitchy they can be when doubling volume :)

You know, every time something like this happens, I cringe inside. Not so much for the people involved (though I don't envy the kid), but every time we get the spotlight on the trans community the jerks come out of the woodwork. It's gonna be all "d00d, he's a she!" and "look between your legs" and on and on and on. I don't even wanna think about what my raving "family values" neighbors (I live in the Ozarks, if you call that living) are going to say. Feces, meet fan. *sigh*

Look, ok: all I'm gonna say is A) your body is the box ya came in, your mind is who you _are_. Took me a while to grok that, but tis true. And B) While I wish the couple in question all the luck in the world, I'm kinda wondering if they sat down and thought out all the consequences of this whole thing, not only for the kid's sake, but for the rest of the community. I mean, when some white guy goes off and does something stupid, people don't go, "Oh, white guys do this stupid thing," but if a transsexual does something outrageous and the general public gets wind of it, it's all "look what transsexuals do!" (grrr...)

Oh. And C) For some reason, there's a whole lot of us who are in the computer industry for some reason. Danged if I know why.

There. IT angle. Y'welcome.

"Fits nicely into hot dog buns, easy to slice to add meaty chunks to pasta dishes"

Or you could just add meat.

"Here's to fewer dropped balls"

in the Visual Studio ad that was running in the article?

C Section?

It could get a tad complicated tho couldn't it?

Right or wrong, in custody cases the law favours the mother unless the father can show a reason why she shouldn't have custody. Given the rate of marriage breakdowns in this day and age it would be interesting to see which way the judiciary would go in a case like this (what with the "mother" having no genetic link with the child)

It also causes complications with maternity leave, as the person giving birth is the father. Any American employment law experts here to clarify that one for us?

Well, it'll be interesting I'm sure...

PS "Thomas Beatie, of Bend, Oregon, underwent sex change surgery". Come on, really? Bend?

Each to their own. OK the child may well have a difficult time of it. It will either be a character building or a soul destroying school experience. Perhaps parents should program their kids to be understanding and open minded instead of instilling them with bigotry. If this kid does get a hard time at school I can see where the problem lies. And it is not with the child of a transgendered parent. I just hope the child has the presence of mind to realise this and the strength of character do deal with it.

There's someone missing from this story - the biofather - the 'real' daddy.

I never met my biofather and the biggest problem I has when I was growing up was prejudice in others - not the fact that my 'real' daddy was not around or that I came from a single parent family.

All that really matters is that the kid is brought up in a loving environment. Some kids don't even have that.

<flame?>

Read, man, READ the bloody story BEFORE you shove your foot into your mouth.

JEEZUS, dude; the story CLEARLY states the transgender individual KEPT HIS FEMALE PARTS INTACT.

</flame?>

I'm with Sarah Bee; it's good to see some compassion and open-mindedness in ElReg's readership for a change!

'ta, y'all!

Joe, kids are only cruel because they have picked up cruelty from other people, I hope you aren't teaching your kids cruelty!!

...and get an agent with Channel 4 on speed-dial, they're always in need of new shock doc docs.

Whether or not the kid will have a tough childhood depends on the community. I'm in Albany (Berkeley's garbage dump -- literally! Look it up! Our women-folk got fed up in 1908, grabbed a bunch of guns, and chased off those rotten Berkelians who were dumping their trash on us). But back to the point, I live in a very liberal area. My son has one classmate with two moms, and two classmates with two dads. None of the kids think anything of it; it's perfectly normal to them. No teasing or bullying has occurred because no one around here treats it as abnormal.

But admittedly, being close to Berkeley is abnormal in and of itself...

Joe

(The alien, because anything from anywhere near Berkeley is decidedly alien).

....and that is the opening line of the story: "A Oregon man who was born a woman..."

I always thought that when you are born you are either male/female or hermaphrodite. At that age you can not think like a man or like a women, you are what your are (is what ya is etc).

Am I barking up the wrong tree, or is my preconception right?

Coat for the preconception line ;)

Now, fuck off.

All this 'think of the children' stuff is seriously misplaced. It's a man and a woman and a child. As long as no nosy busy body digs out the fact that the _father_ gave birth, the child will be absolutely fine.

As to the 'biology' idiots - the concept of mixed sexual identifiers is hardly new within both the body and/or the mind.

not that it's any of my business but to my mind :) if you can't diagnose it physically (and there’s no chance of ever being able to then it's psychological.

anyway, clever man/woman for keeping a set of spares around, just in case.

Kids aren't cruel, they're just brutally honest. ;)

Thanks for your Pro-choice, received wisdom, liberalism-or-death advice John.

Here's one for you to ponder...

If you actually are morally and technically superior, examine yourself and realise that your mind is the most closed here...

Your training and experience tells you that you are totally right and no-one else could ever be.

I only asked 2 questions. For which crime you condemned me. If you are the voice of correctness then I thank goodness for my brutal ignorance.

You may also notice that I have no wish to shut you up or belittle you.

This is the sort of muddle that occurs when for PC reasons society denies reality and supports the fantasy. Having an operation to mimic the opposite sex clearly does not make you the opposite sex, as this story shows. If the op makes you feel better and you don't try to deceive a partner, then fine, go live your own life. That's your affair. But this is not a case of a pregnant man, it is a case of a pregnant woman who prefers to live life as a man (usually) to the extent that they have opted to undergo surgery.

Then there's no winning this argument.

If you define gender by genetics = Female

By genitalia present = Female

By mind = Male

By law = Male

A kid of two lesbians or two gay men willl have much bigger problems, as the 'difference' is much more obvious to the other kids. So will the only black or the only asian kid in the school. And remember that the US West coast is pretty tolerant of non-traditional gender definitions like homosexuality and transsexualism. Land of fruits and nuts, if you haven't heard the joke (I grew up in Calif.)...

I hope all goes well for everyone.

But I am quite curious whether the father will breastfeed in public.. :-)

Kids aren't brutally honest; they're just taught brutality by adults.

Just thinking of the mechanics.

YYYEEEEOOOOOWWWWWCCCCCCHHHHHHHHH!

PH, 'cause she'd try anything once...

Some kids seem to have cruelty inherent in them, a sort of excessive selfishness that has no concept of what they do to others. Many other kids learn from their peers what sort of behaviour produces benefits, and what sort makes them part of the group. Adults have little influence except that if they don't make an effort to teach right from wrong, then the child has little reason to change.

Technically it's possible for XY men to carry babies (through an ectopic pregnancy) - it's just incredibly inadvisable.

My suspicion is that the father's gender identity is considerably more complicated than just being 'a man', and that this is simplified for everyone except partners and close friends/relations. Otherwise, if you're going to throw such strongly gendered terms around, you shouldn't be considering something that acts directly against them.

I worry less about the baby, than about the father. Hormones aren't taken for trivial reasons, and if the father hadn't already been considering the effects of coming off them before a baby was considered, there may be a mental impact on resetting to a more female body.

All I can say is at least the father is garaunteed to be there for the birth

Seems alright for the Mother(non pregnant one), won't she get maternity leave?(if it were the uk, maternity leave is quite long) which could last ages.

As for the Father/(pregnant Carrier of the baby) if he only gets paternity leave (usually a couple of weeks if it were the uk) seems like he got the short end of the stick.

This is unless of course the couple have understanding employers, or they can somehow get the court to swap the rights or default over to the rights you get if you adopt where the leave for both is usually longer anyway

Fair enough comment, Mark,,,,,

Hope this helps....

There is a blanket phrase used widely in the transgender community - Gender Dysphoria. Literally a degree of discomfort with the physical gender one was born with. There is debate regarding whether this should be considered to be a medical condition with its roots in an individual's psychology or simply a natural expression of gender variance, where gender is considered a spectrum rather than being polarised between the two absolutes of Male and Female. Personally I'm agnostic on that one.

However, there is some evidence to suggest that Gender Dysphoria has a physical causation. Limited research suggests that male to female transexuals may have a brain topography that is more typical of the female brain than the male. Other research relating to hormone levels of pregnant women suggests that with certain hormonal imbalances they will give birth to children who are transgendered......

The degree of Gender Dysphoria may vary, giving rise not only to male and female transexuals but also to people such as myself who are capable of functioning within the role our birth gender dictates but who who also need to present at least part of the time in the opposite gender role. Aka 'Transvestites'. (I now await the inevitable 'Little Britain' jibes with fortitude).

Having (I hope) answered that one, I must say that I was heartened to see a decent proportion of comments here that are reasonably supportive. Thank you.

One comment regarding the Daily Mail (loved the comment, AC - PMSL)

Their website recently published a story relating to a mixed bunch of transvestites and transexual women being refused service at a pizza restaurant. The comments thread was of course full of comments like 'deviants', 'family values' etc. I posted a polite and reasoned response from the transgendered persons point of view. It was rejected without explaination by the moderator. It seems that Freedom of Speech sometimes means freedom to say what decent, clean living folk say......

Oh, and yes - the IT industry is stacked full of people like me........

Saying "if you want to change gender you should go all the way, if you can carry a foetus you're still a woman" is only slightly less narrow-minded then saying "you shouldn't be able to change gender at all" - and when I say "slightly", the difference is so small as to be meaningless. If people want to change their body then they should be able to pick and choose whatever bits they feel like (assuming emotional maturity, obviously).

The body is a vessel for carrying around your brain and manipulating the world around you, nothing more, and is yours and yours alone to tinker with just like a car or computer. I don't ask Herr Ratzinger or anyone else whether I should use a PC or a Mac and I'm not interested in anyone else's opinion on whether I should have a John Thomas or a Jade Gate either. If you're happy with cosmetic surgery, or prosthetics, or hell, the fact that most of your cells completely replace themselves every few years, there should be no problem with gender reassignment - in any form.

i am transgender and i lol hard at some of the ignorant commenters here. im glad el reg didnt take the piss, but question why this story is on the site in the first place.

There is also perhaps also a more pragmatic reason why the father may not originally have 'gone all the way'.....

Sexual Reasignment Surgery is not cheap. Regardless of whether its male to female or female to male, these are complex procedures (I'll spare you the gory details) that required skilled specialists. In the UK, a limited number of such operations are carried out under the NHS each year but funds are tight and many people take the private option. Its not uncommon therefore for people to elect for partial reassignment initially and to return for more work as they can afford it....

Incidentally, for anyone wishing to rant about 'waste of taxpayers money' most specialist surgeons in the UK spend the great majority of their working lives correcting the physical anomalies that occur when people are born intersexed. The intersex phenomenon (which is most definitely physical) is far more common than transexuality.....

Not a lot of people know that.........

Mark_T is right, the secular relativists are the ones who preach in such an intolerant fashion, using fallacious reasoning such as ad hominem attacks and deemed guilt by association with the nutty religious right. This does not advance your position, just as Richard Dawkins' faulty reasoning in "The God Delusion" does not advance his cause - indeed, if you talk to many committed humanists you will find they disown Dawkins in the same way as most mainstream Christians disown the nutters in America. I would refer you to http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

To return to the point at issue, we are all (thank goodness) different as human beings. However, Mark_T's question stands: where do we decide that the body should be changed to fit the mind rather than vice versa? Gender is not a cut and dried issue, and throughout history there have been effeminate men and androgynous women, as well as children born intersex - but it is only in the last, what, 50 years that we have assumed that the solution involves a scalpel. Why do we assume that this is the most enlightened course of action?

PS, IT angle?

don't be so open minded... your brain might fall out!

mine's the lab coat covered in steak sauce

"why would a vegetarian want a simulated meat sausage?"

it is an interesting philosophical question, yes...but he/she chose to retain his/her female reproductive organs, just in case

so there would seem to be some sort of sausage aversion altogether here.

coat>hat>taxi for paddy

Well, honestly I wish them luck.

I do have one question. How much of the female bits did he keep? Is he going to need a C Section?

Grief, what's the big deal.... OK, it's gonna be a little weird for the kid, but it beats being the child of a heroin addict, or of violent parents, or of religious extremists, or being a kid in Iraq.

This idea that you're either a man or a woman and thats that is a very conservative Christian idea. It's bourn of the idea that God is a divine creator and so we are all 'intended' to be either one sex or the other. Actually, real life is nowhere near that simple.

You can either try and force reality to conform to an ignorant idealism, or you can accept that life is full of variation and enjoy the huge diversity nature presents us with. The second is more fun and more interesting, but I suppose the first is safer and less frightening.

"Thumb Down

Couples like this are very selfish in their desire to have kids, they don't think about what it will be like for a young child growing up with a transexual parent..

Kids can be very cruel, and as soon as other schoolkids get wind of the situation, this child is in for a very unpleasant schooling.

"

I know 7 kids of trans people. Doing fine at school.

To : Trish thank you for saying what I wanted to say.

Nice to see another trans person on the board.

Ps silicon valley seems to be liter with trans people in high tech jobs

"Hope this helps...."

An exemplary posting. I read it carefully and feel wiser for it.

Up to a point I am a "what ever gets you through the day" believer as long as it doesn't cause harm.

However I have never heard a convincing argument that makes me feel that taking a knife to a healthy body is anything other than a deeply desperate act.

If a body is statistically healthy then cosmetic surgery cannot "correct it."

Bringing the body in line with the mental self image is a different issue that I don't know anything about.

However Katie (Jordan) Price is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong.

... People seem to completely miss the point that said transgender has made it clear that he will be the father and his wife, hysterectomy or not, will be the mother. Evidently the child will know it has a father and a mother - That's more than what other kids have.

So what if daddy gave birth because he was smart in that kind of sense? I don't think they intend to trumpet that fact around town or elsewhere. They intend to live their lives normally as can be done.

To TrishaD et al - you GO girl/boy! Diversity rules. :-)

Little known fact for everyone invested in trying to impose this man's previous sex upon him: Biological sex differentiation isn't really that much of a black and white process. In fact there's a big enough grey area that there've been a number of women with an XY karotype who never found out until they got chromosomally tested for competing at high levels in the Olympics (for instance). There are a number of different factors involved in diagnosing someone's biological sex, although the primary one used at birth is the "presence" or "absence" of a penis. Except even that is a remarkably gray process, with pieces of penis shaped flesh that fall below a certain size threshhold getting surgically altered into a superficially vulval shape under the misguided idea that you can make a kid into whatever you want so that they'll be a little less confusing for people, and that the kid won't grow up and be fucked up by it. Something which more recently has been proven tragically wrong in a number of cases, not least of which being the fairly publicly noted case of David Reimer (google it).

My point is that many people seem to have this remarkably clear cut idea of biological sex which itself doesn't actually represent nature, much as surgeons and biologists have regularly been trying to impose it upon the human species for the last 50 years. And that maybe it's worth being a little open-minded that someone can have a body that doesn't fit them one way or another at least in terms of sex/gender. There may be neurological components to sex along with endocrinological, karotypal, phenotypal and other areas of sexual dimorphism.

...that got him (her) into this condition in the first place.

How about dropping the gender terms such as 'male/female', 'he/she' etc and just talk about the whole thing in chromosomic terms. In which case an XX, who was born XX with the organs peculiar to XX, got married to a second XX. The second XX is unable to conceive so the first XX has conceived in its place.

See- a lot simplier and no need for gender bias, bigotry or the such.

Body? Mind? What are you talking about? There are no such things separate, it's all one. (if you doubt that, I'd guess you've never gotten drunk or something similar)

It's past the time to get over that artificial Cartesian dualism.

Gender Dysphoria, a medcal condition? I don't think so. Or suicide or homosexuality or the desire to "be a fireman when I grow old" are medical conditions. As for the "female brain mapping"... don't make me laugh! 50% of the world population (85% in the US -obligatory US-bashing comment) would have to be legally considered as slugs if we relied on brain activity mapping. Other than that, good points made.

As for gender being a religious thing only: there is something called sexual reproduction that might be of some secondary importance, too. It's pretty clear-cut.

What is of social origin (christian if you want to be self-centered, but it's mostly the same in other cultures) is the behavior that is expected from you depending on your biological sex. To this regard, transgenderism is not about getting free of the scaffold but about nesting in the other side of the scaffold. Social revolt the easy way, kinda (no judging or down-looking intended).

Anyway, +1 for the "wtf does this do here"-pretty much some void wrapped in nothing. Or... given the relatively high rate of transgender people in IT... maybe the B in BOFH stands for Bitch actually. Ho noes.

but nevermind all that now... that kid is going to hit his/her head on the way out!

That which we call a rose,

By any other name would smell as sweet

It does not really matter what that person is called.

For him/her, what matters is what s/he thinks.

As long as nobody's suffering from it, it's all right with me.

And about the child's life, there are children born in far worse

situations everyday... Without attracting the attention of newspapers.

The issue here isnt the child's parents but society itself. It's societies misconceptions that will prove to be the biggest issue for this child. All you have to do is read some of the comments her *cough*flame*cough**cough* and you realize that society itself is to blame for any problems a child might have.

"The body is a vessel for carrying around your brain and manipulating the world around you, nothing more"

I thought the brain (and the body) was just a vessel to aid in the reproduction of your DNA.

In which case it is functioning fine (as sHe did get pregnant), but it was a close call.

against him and told him to go stuff himself. And so he did.

talk about the ultimate case of "unwilling to commit".

What really p*sses me off is people who have such idle time in their lives, such leisure and lack of need to work on things like survival, that they can sit around and agonize about what gender they want to be today.

Don't see much of that happening in war zones, in nations where poverty is *real* and not something you drive your car around to protest about being poor.

On top of that, too many folks trying to set things up so they can change around at whim. Changing names, changing sex, changing race...but even worse, not just changing what the individual "feels" like a the time, but *forcing* the entire world to accept their current choice.

An individual forcing people to think a certain way, forcing laws to accept their whims or desires, forcing society to "accept" whatever they choose-that's a dictatorship. When it's a minority, it's called apartheid.

And to make matters worse, it's not just the laws. It's the desire to force people to "think" a certain way, to force people to "feel" a certain way. And to force people to abandon their faith if necessary-true thought and emotional control. That's what it is, and these folks need to quit pointing their fingers and accusing others of intolerance while forcing their myopic concerns on everybody they come into contact with.

Freedom isn't free-that's more than a truism. Freedom means an individual can do what they want. but it also means that others can do what they want. If you do something outside the norm, you do not have the right to force other people to accept, regardless of your non-religious faith that "it's better for mankind!". If your new way or choice or whatever is truly beneficial, society will adopt it freely. If not, too bad.

What's next? People dressing in greasepaint, juggling and riding around in tiny cars, being offended and passing judgement on people who laugh at clowns as "bigots" and making new protectionist laws?

"examinate"?

You ain't from 'round these here good ol' U S of A now is ya? Danged if that don't sound like a good ol' Bushieism to me.

Yee Haw!!!

I have a sister in Albany.

Anon because you lot freak me out :D

Alien because you lot....eh

You might want to review your facts. In Human, biological sex is determined by the presence of a functional Y chromosome (which is why XXY individuals are "roughly" male) though it varies with species -in the Drosophila for example, sex is determined by the X over Y ratio.

That's also why humans with an XY caryotype can be female if their Y chromosome is defective (mutations and/or deletions).

But this has little to do with the issue at hand. Transgenderism is mostly about socially acceptable behavior (having the body that matches ones wanted behavior can be useful for many things, including self-consideration). IMHO.

But if the child develops into a criminal (and I sincerely hope that doesn't happen), who is to blame? The parents for being unusual, society for being bigotted and ostracizing the child, or the child for not being able to accept the inevitable taunting and confusion.

All power to them, and I hope the world has changed by the time that child comes of age.

> What really p*sses me off is people who have such

> idle time in their lives, such leisure and lack of

> need to work on things like survival, that they can

> sit around and agonize about what gender they want

> to be today.

yeah, sucks, doesn't it? all that sitting around on our asses all day, posting on message boards instead of running away from the wooly mammoths..

> but *forcing* the entire world to accept their current choice.

_forcing_ to accept? dude, do you understand the meaning of "accept"? no one is dragging you onto the operating table here! This isn't like the king changing religion, so all the peasants have to change religion too. "Forcing to accept" means "don't be an arse to people on the basis of gender".

Lucky that you don't have such strong urges that contradict the dominant religious views.

> forcing society to "accept" whatever they choose-that's a dictatorship.

and again..

> People dressing in greasepaint, juggling and riding around in

> tiny cars, being offended and passing judgement on people who

> laugh at clowns as "bigots" and making new protectionist laws?

I don't know. We'll have to evaluate that one when it comes up. We let women vote, ridiculous as that seemed, and that seems to have turned out ok. Oh, and blacks are people now.

Also-

people have been confusing "gender" and "sex" since commenting began (even Trish), so here is the definition:

gender -> social, personal identification with a role, etc.. fuzzy.

sex -> biological, as fuzzy as that gets.

Freedom is not free is not a truism. It's the most cynical, ill-advised, dictature-justifying argument ever issued. That's the most unacceptable statement ever. It basically means "anyone can do anything provided they think it's right AND they are powerfull enough to get away with it". It means "let's kill people in the name of economical reason hidden behind vague "liberty" bullshit". It means "we can do whatever we want to you, it's for your own good".

Liberty IS free. That's why the US aren't anywhere near liberty, never were, and (please prove me wrong) never will be.

To express things more politely than I'd wish to, maybe you should consider where your"freedom" comes from. If you're too young to remember by yourself, it comes from France, more precisely from the "Siècle des Lumières". It comes from the idea that freedom is free indeed, and that this idea should be spread as widely as possible.

All other views come from sordid economico-political interests, and the fact that the infamous "freedom is not free" sentence appears on a memorial monument (Corea war memorial if I can remember) along the mall in DC is a shame for the US. The essence of freedom is to be free indeed, no political or oil-chasing purpose should be allowed to interfere with that. No inefficient-by-design terrorist chase scheme should interfere with that. No religious belief should interfere with that either. Freedom IS free, and anything that is not free shouldn't be mistaken for freedom. Remember your own history. Remember what this huge statue in NY was supposed to mean. Just remember.

If it wasn't for improvement in technology, transgender issues wouldn't have existed... Technically from biological definition of chromosomes she is still a female even though she has a tried to make herself an androgenous effeminate male. There are lots of women out there that look fugly maleish if it wasn't for their long hair and female sumo wrestling physique.

"we don't speak of 'mother' and 'father' but of 'feminine referent' and 'male referent'"

The iron rule of political correctnes tightens its grip.

Kids need a (genuninely male) father, and a (genuninely female) mother. If the parents can't get on and end up divorcing, thats not good - they should try to work it out. Sometimes they can't, thats just life and the kid will have to live with it.

Intentionally starting out with a fscked up family is criminally selfish. Just because they can't see whats wrong doesn't make it ok. There is such a thing as morality. There is such a thing as right. And such a thing as wrong.

This is wrong. No amount of "You can think and do whatever you want as long as it doesn't offend a minority" politically correct rubbish should be allowed to get in the way of that simple fact.

Where did the sperm come from??

If you weren't allowed (as a kid) to put on two different socks, or do something different from your friends, then I feel sorry for you. If you never even wanted to, then that's even sadder... And if you don't allow your own kids - I feel sorry for them.

Just because you are comfortable with who you are and what you look like, does not mean that everyone is. How many women wear makeup, or color their hair? Lots. Fewer go for plastic surgery, but still a lot. How many men go in for hair replacement or penile enlargement products? And people often do this for years, every day.

This person wants a bigger change, but that does not mean that he will (or can) change his mind back again later. Your 'what gender they want to be today' comment is frankly rude, and shows your ignorance of this topic. Most people agonize over this for years before deciding to get the ops.

Or maybe you are just a troll. Hopefully you are less ignorant than your post makes you out to be.

What is the point of this thread continuing when the 6th person in the comments hit this on the head?

This is a woman with surgical alterations, not a man. It no different from running a story about how Jordan was preparing to give birth.

Only difference is she is surgically enhanced and the woman in this story is surgically reduced.

In simple terms a Man has XY chromosones, A woman has XX. A man with with penis cut off and inverted and silicone in his chest is not a woman, his genes have not been changed. Likewise this Woman with her breasts removed, and no alterations whatsoever to the lower half off her body (you know where the female reproductive organs are) is still a woman.

There is "the transgender individual kept his female parts intact" issue. Are we to assume that the medical profession, in all it's glory, enabled a "normal" gendered individual to become, via surgery, a hemaphrodite? My head hurts...

Oh, after zac... "C-Section" is cesarean... they "go in" just above the cock. WhatthefuckamIsaying? Why am I even bothering to add my thoughts to this thread? I need a picture of something soft and cuddly to help me callm down... ahhhhhhhhh.

We are all missing the real dilema here! What will he wear!

Where can he buy maternity? paternity? clothing when the bulge gets too big?

I guess you are all right.. he really didn't think this one through! I've not been this outranged since the song "a boy named Sue"

All joking aside. Why have people a problem with this? The kid will be fine, The kid will probably have more serious issues to deal with in his teenage years, like acne!

As science gives us more options about who we want to be we'll see more of this and so what! People have the right to be who they feel and if science makes it possible for men to have kids in the future then they will and more power too them!

I'd even have my girlfriends period for her if i thought she'd be less 'moody' with me! I'd even even carry a baby for her because she has a much hotter body than me and long may it last!

Doesn't the male sea-horse carry his young after fertilisation?

So I don't know why people have a problem with this based on relgious beliefs. Did god not make sea-horses? Was god drunk that day? is god really a joker?

Maybe the world just keeps turning and changes happen because of the people around to make them and there is no higher power.

If you have a problem with this then it is YOU WHO HAS THE PROBLEM with this.

When i have kids they will no bully kids if they're parents don't fit the norm. Anyway, the internet will have them so messed up that they will think anything is normal and science by then will probably have made it so.

and fyi, outranged was a deliberate typo! Of course im not outraged... I love Johnny Cash!

It says in the article it was artifical insemination.

Just like they do with cattle. Not to be confused with the imaculate conception (spell), btw, that poor kid must have got teased no end in school for having no biological father....

Take some sperm from the Bank of Sperm and wave the magic wand and bingo. (OK some i a little rusty on the procedure)

Techinally i guess the sperm came from the male donors testicles, (it is unknow if this man dresses as a woman though or is a transgender female)

Dunno about drunk - but certainly stoned the day He/She came up with the duck-billed platypus. Mmmm bit circular that... "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck - it's a duck" - nice one Sordid.

So, how would you like your eggs in the morning.... "UNFERTILISED!!!" Icon, because she knows how to keep her eggs in a haploid state.

I don't have a comment about the story, it's just since everyone else had one that I felt lonely.

I'm leaving now.

It says nowhere in the bible that everyone gets born male or female in every sense, just that we get born male or female. I guess the fact that people tend to think of themselves one way or the other makes this true enough. The fact that some people feel the need to switch they way they think of themselves makes this true only up to a point.

For those of us who are secure enough in our own sexuality, letting others switch theirs without feeling threatened isn't an issue. Making infants endure potentially life-limiting surgery to fit the prejudices of insecure parents doesn't make any sense. Hopefully transgendered children will be happy with the way they are born enough not to want surgery, but if sufficienty mature persons of mixed gender making informed decisions about their own surgery persuade doctors acting ethically that surgery would improve their lives sufficiently to justify whatever reduction in future options the proposed surgery involves, then we shouldn't oppose surgery. But ethical doctors need to be sure that any reduction of future options to change back should never be undertaken without extremely good justification. Removal of wombs and ovaries from men or penises from girls limits the future options of the individuals concerned. This should not be done simply because society is ignorant and prejudiced against variation, only because it makes a happy and contented life more possible for the individual concerned who is capable of deciding what they want for themselves.

As a Christian who worships someone with no biological father I celebrate life in all its diversity, single or transgendered, as a gift from God. As we are all made in God's image we have no business looking down on anyone created by God as less valid in their being or gender than anyone else.

Many veggie 'sausages', "rely on spices and vegetables to lend their natural flavor to the product and no attempt is made to imitate meat." - Wikipedia

---

How strange that you are so concerned by some people's motives for eating some foods. Did you run out of ideas on your "Things I think I should have an opinion on" list?

In what way is a sausage (a cylinder) or a burger (a disc) the shape of meat? What shape should veggie substitutes be? Pyramid, star? Or is the sausage-cylinder the unique preserve of the meat-eater? There's a limit to the practical number of shapes for cooking (most meat is cut to these shapes anyway), so I really don't understand this objection.

Besides, since when did sausages/meatpies/fannied about with meat look and taste like meat? Most meat is disguised/tampered with so it doesn't taste like something that's been hanging around decomposing in a abattoir for days on end. And meat free products taste nicer too - no fat or gristle or dodgy looking bits to chew on.

I hear more meat eaters complain about vegetarians than you'd ever hear the other way round....

Still, I'll tell you what REALLY gets up my nose. It's the weirdos that eat cauliflower. If you don't want to eat broccoli, DON'T EAT BROCCOLI. Don't go messing around with something that tastes different but still the same shape. You lot make me sick.

what about someone who is XXY? or XO? or X_? or has Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) and has XY chromosomes but was born with normal female genitals? or has partial AIS and has a small penis and shallow vagina? Where do they fit on your XY=male, XX=female binary?

There are several thousand babies born every year in Canada (30mill population so do the math for your country) with some form of obvious intersex condition, there are many times that with non-visible indicators that are only found later in life with a kyrotype test... and likely many more who never know. Often babies with non-standard genitals are whisked away from parents for "emergency surgery", and without so much as a care for the child, "doctors" slice up their genitals to reconstruct it in a "normal" fashion (this is almost always done to assign the child to be female, regardless of chromosomes or the child's gender identity)

claiming that there are only XY and XX people is simply wrong.

that said, let's have some definition time:

Sex: what is between your legs

Gender: what is between your ears.

Sexual orientation: who you want in bed.

Gender has nothing to do with what parts you have or who you sleep with, say it with me... "gender has nothing to do with what parts you have or who you sleep with." very good class. A person can have a male sex, female gender, and a homosexual orientation (that means they like other girls), or any combination there of.

For those with a morbid curiosity about the delivery... last time I checked you were not shagging this guy, so you have no right to know ANYTHING about what is in his pants. End of story. I've never seen a comment on a Bill Gates story where someone asks "ya, but how big is is wang?"... If you don't think it would be polite to talk about Bill's schlong, it is not polite to talk about this guy's either.

I'm a straight female, so I'm not just a GLBT person sticking up for one of my own when I say, "good for them". A married couple wants a baby, and the wife can't have one. Other couples would have to adopt or go with a surrogate, but they are lucky enough that for whatever reasons, the husband is capable of carrying the child for her. I wish them the same congrats and hopes for a healthy baby that any other couple would deserve while expecting. They and their child may face discrimination, but I hope it will be minimal, and that people will act in a mature way. Many families face discrimination for reasons ranging from race to religion, and no one suggests they should not have children, so I think that it is unreasonable to say they should not have a child beacuse of what people might think.

The real problem with the idea of "dysphoria" is that it's medically indistinguishable from "dysmorphia". Anorexics and body-building addicts are treated psychologically yet this "dysphoria" is treated physically despite a lack of physically detectable symptoms.

Yes, most people who undergo this surgery do have physical diagnosable conditions such as AIS, but using that as a justification for carrying out surgery on someone who doesn't...? I don't know if it follows logically.

Besides, I don't know how anyone else thinks -- my only experience of thought is my own. How the hell would I know whether I think like a man or a woman?

These sort of questions really bake my noodle.

unless the parents are planning on giving first hand demonstrations of a penis and vagina, what does it matter what is in their pants?

I don't know what my dad's penis looks like, I don't know how my mom's vagina looks like... assuming that is what they have, I've never asked.

if you are saying that a person who: looks like a man, thinks like a man, feels like a man and has a penis = good father, and a person who: looks like a man, thinks like a man, feels like a man and doesn't have a penis = bad dad.... then I have to ask what great task a father needs a penis for? (note i said father, not sperm doner)

I think that a number of your 'points' have been quite effectively addressed by other people. So I'll stick with this one...

''What really p*sses me off is people who have such idle time in their lives, such leisure and lack of need to work on things like survival, that they can sit around and agonize about what gender they want to be today.

''Don't see much of that happening in war zones, in nations where poverty is *real* and not something you drive your car around to protest about being poor.''

Sorry,,, wrong on all counts.

There are transgendered people in all societies and sound evidence that there have always been...

The Lakota Sioux used the word 'Winkte' to describe 'Two Spirit' people, males who presented as female. They were accepted by that society and allowed to marry.

The Hijra of India and Pakistan have been an established (though reviled and illtreated) part of those societies for hundreds of years. You might know them better as 'eunuchs' because they typically undergo the crudest of all physical alterations to make their bodies more congruent with the gender that they perceive themselves to be.

There are transgendered people in the African sub-continent who live their lives in fear - it is not uncommon for execution under locally interpreted Sharia law to be the penalty for being transgendered.

The relatively high incidence of transexuality in Thailand is well documented,

So if you believe for a moment that this is something that idle people do based on some whim, you're sadly deluded. You're also sadly deluded if you think that in our enlightened western society that being transgendered is an easy ride. Last year, a close friend of mine, a post operative transexual female, was attacked at 8 am on a busy London street on her way to work. She was battered over the head with a piece of wood by a gang of rugged individuals who, like you, felt she had no right to force the world to accept her choice in choosing to live as a female.

Here's the bitter and unacceptable truth - we are, by and large, ordinary, decent, moral, hard working people who did not choose to be the way that we are. Now is that such a very difficult thing to understand and accept?

Stopthepropaganda is troll. If you look at his other post you will see a clear pattern.

Indeed "Stopthepropaganda is troll", but there's nothing like the sweet sell of burning fur. And this thread lacked a good old flamewar anyway. Mine's the one with the gas tank and odd tube attached.

Anonymous Coward

My points were all directed at this story and I used the term 'In simple terms' specifically to avoid pointless debates about the other possible combinations of chromosomes. Sexuallity is not an issue either, I don't care if this woman 'feels' male or not, its not relevant. The point is that this is a biologically functional female that is pregnant; its a non story.

how about you look up facts in the DSM 4, APA (American Psychiatric Association), CPA (Canadian Psychiatric Association), WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health), and/or medical journals instead, you will find the same stuff. This is not some made up wikipedia stuff, the differences between gender and sex have been well documented for decades and have frequently been used in the court of law in most 1st world countries.

"in simple terms" you were dead wrong. "In simple terms" there are people who drive cars, and people who drive trucks... except for people who drive both, SUVs, minivans, motorcycles, walk, bike or take the bus.... but "in simple terms" people are only car drivers or truck drivers and you are one or you are the other. riiiiight. This doesn't even address the fact that neither you, nor I, know this mans genetic make up.

your, "biological" definition of gender is over 75 years out of date, there were people still using leaches to cure a cold when that theory last held water. I would say 'get with the 21st century', but you are barely in the 20th so I would be happy if you just got with the latter half of the one you are already in.

Going on the very valid argument titled, "@ J and many others. By Anonymous Coward" ... I'd have to confess that I am, in fact, a well adjusted lesbian, trapped quite happily inside the body of a man.

here, I'll get your coat.

:) glad to hear it :)

Not all transpeople require medical transition. Some, like yourself can lead happy lives with non-medical treatment... such as counseling, occasional cross-dressing, role-playing etc. This is akin to a mild diabetic managing their condition with diet... some however, require some pretty heavy doses of insulin.

There are mild cases (such as yours) as well as severe cases that require a little more then that, and everything in between. It is up to the person involved to decide how much, if any, medical treatment is required to handle their condition.

The consequences of the nature of this child's birth will probably not be all that catastrophic, unless the parents continue to play into the hands of the media. (Yes, Oprah I'm looking at you.)

I do wonder why sexuality and gender types aren't manipulated in a more normative manner. If a person is anorexic we alter their behavior to fit what would be considered normal for their height and metabolic type. Considering that high doses of certain hormones can alter the shape and prominence of brain structures, as well as gene expression. Might we devote some time to research into trying to correct the issues rather than just requiring the acceptance of abnormal as normal?

Just seems odd that we would try to medicate ADHD, autism, and schizophrenia but not transgenders. All of the above, including anorexia, either have proven or suspected genetic components. Does that make them normal?

Philisophically, what would you argue makes those conditions different?

''What really p*sses me off is people who have such idle time in their lives, such leisure and lack of need to work on things like survival, that they can sit around and agonize about what gender they want to be today.

''Don't see much of that happening in war zones, in nations where poverty is *real* and not something you drive your car around to protest about being poor.''

Hmm... there *are* transgender people in my country, where *real poverty* exists. And I haven't seen much "driving car" protests as well. Have you ever been to one of these impoverished places?

Anonymous Coward (21:51 02/04)

You're argument is pretty much the same as my own, though I chose not to express it in my earlier comments to avoid starting an argument; but since one started anyway it makes little difference...

The issue comes down to social acceptance; it is not socially acceptable to be a disruptive child with ADHD so it seen as 'the right thing' to treat the condition. The same goes for anorexia and obesity as well.

Due to a number of factors; being transgender, gay, or whatever else you choose to label it, is seen as an acceptable state and thus it is 'morally wrong' to try and treat the condition.

Of course this is a purely scientific argument, and as long as people are happy with themselves and not suffering it makes no real difference to leave thing as they are. Its not like there are too few straight people to continue the species.

BTW. I feel I should appologise for my 'Wikipedia' comment. I am aware that all the conditions described in the posts that followed are real and backed by medical evidence. But at the same time such facts are often used by people that don't fully comprehend them in arguments (especially on the internet). Which is why I chose not to mention them in the first place.

Also

In regards to my original post the article on advocate.com states

"so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights"

thus a woman (from a purely reproductive standpoint) is pregnant. Hence my 'non story' comment. If the language I used to make this statement caused offence It was not my intent to do so. I was just making a technical observation.

A agree. I am mostly looking at this from a technical standpoint. It seems odd that some structures and behaviors are considered abnormal and medicated while others that are outside of a fully and properly expressed complement of genes are not.

Oh well. Either way, it is a non-story except for some reason the mother-to-be probably thought that this would be a good way to garner publicity for the transgender community. Good for them. Best wishes to the mother to be... Talking about weird post-partem as well. Ok, dropped the bun, now back to being a man.

Does make one wonder though... If it becomes more socially acceptable will the transgender process become more prevalent? Would there be regret and regression? Does it make sense to alter the body to fit the mind? Does that change make one's grasp of reality more tenuous as the body is so much more malleable? <I used to work the door at strip clubs, and the less grip a woman had on the world, the more likely she was to have extensive augmentation. (Purely subjective anecdote on my part.)>