I hope they lose their tax-free "religion" status in the USA. This is not a religion. The worldwiide rallies on March 15 will no doubt be a turning point. http://www.operating-thetan.com

Easy fix , if they use GoDaddy , then a simple call to the prez and all you get is the "oops page" as they pull the plug and then hijack the domain name too just to rub salt in the wounds !

I was wondering... Since Unfair contractual terms can be challenged here in the UK, does anyone know of anyone who's thrown this ridiculously long commitment to the Sea Org into a court case?

The "document" (HA) was obviously put together by the individual whose name and identifications appear at its beginning. Some of it headed with a dated in a different font than the type that follows. Authentic would be nice, but it looks like WIkileaks is perfectly willing to accept hand typed "documents", too. In the long run I would bet a Euro Wikileaks plans to challenge legality in a hundred ways. In the long run I would bet we are going to see international law, cooperation among nations, more cooperative law enforcement, because Wikileaks feels compelled to "expose" these trivial matters.

I'm sure most of this has been brought to light before, particularly the "fair game" and billion year indentured servitude contracts. Check out Xenu.net (Operation Clambake) for more information on this illegal cult*.

* according to Germany.

...of an organised religion.

And I am sure they already pay taxes: like their brethren in other faiths, they just do so via the special 'political donation' channel rather than via the tax department the rest of us use.

BTW: nice to see the Catholic Church diversifying their product portfolio this week too.

Nice try, Scientocultist.

"Nothing to see here ... move along!" Right, Terryeo? If it's so trivial, why do you spend so much time patrolling the entire web, pretending to have "some" experience in Scientology, yet so adamant about damage control. You seem intelligent enough to be clever about it, yet not smart enough to know when to run from the avalanche of truth a la free speech. I'll match any euros you bet that you work for the OSA (it would be pretty pathetic if you weren't), and someday - if you're lucky in this lifetime - you will be a similar contributor to Wikileaks with your own telling story.

Rinder Blew - So Can You!

I would like to introduce you to "Terryeo" . Any online search engine will show you a huge string of his massively Scientology biased, nonobjective posts (appart from a few jokers posing as him), his banning from wikipedia editing of the scientology article, and in general all round outing by A.R.S and other knowledgeable critics as a member of OSA the very censorship organization your article is about, the 'Office of Special Affairs'.

The OSA usual main tactic is 'ad hominem' attacks, and thread derailment, completely ignoring any pertinent questions.

Consider yourselves forewarned.

Published psychology papers show that people who think about violence are more likely to commit violent crimes. Nobody seems to want to question the definitions of a person who commits violent crimes (one who is caught) or that the data on thoughts came from the subject's own confession, nor of the fact that this can also be taken as simply that people who confess to things get caught.

With this being passed as science you can understand some of the attraction of an organised religion primarily founded on its being bull.

'One BILLION years! Mwahahahahah!'

Mine's the one with 'Xenu for President' on the back thanks.

Even cults started and run by criminals or the criminally insane. Look at Christian Science and the Mormons. I don't think anyone would argue that members of those are anything other than ordinary middle class people now?

So what's the current status of Scientology? Is this leak current, or more stuff from 20 years ago?

Cool!

Maybe Wikileaks can be used to expose other "religions" for the misguided virus-like sicknesses they are.

Does anyone have access to the similar paperwork for the "Special Groups" inside Christian, Muslim, and Catholic organisations?

Unfortunately, the whole "tax free" religious thing is a really nice scam that continues to haunt many governments. Some of the towns around here have a church almost on every corner - all not paying property taxes, but all expecting police/fire protection and roads to their door, and all the other things that taxes pay.

I for one am getting tired of subsidizing all the crazy religious nutjobs that I disagree with. If someones religion requires them to own lots of property, that should NOT be a protected "right". Protect BELIEF, not land. Let them pay the same taxes as everyone else. It's time our secular governments got off the pot and gave the heave-ho to these scammers. All of them.

The Bible, Qur'an and .. The Bible are already out there, free to obtain and well documented.

Those religions also do not sue for copyright infringement.

I can't speak for the muslims but the Christians tel you exactly where your donations go, and don't run home gulags like the RPF.

Silly me responding to OSA targeted thread derailment,

Back on topic, the actual questions, thoughts on the criminal intent of the 'Church' of Scientology.revealed in the documents leaked?

Oh, Incidentally the church of Scientology has filed for a restraining order on '1-500 'john does' this week, to attempt to cull the Anonymous protest in clearwater.

Way to shoot yourself in the foot contesting the First Amendment, Free Speach and the Right to Protest.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/03/12/Northpinellas/Scientology_fights_ba.shtml

I cant even imagine working for the same company for 5 years in a row, imagine being stuck working for them for a billion years.

You die, you go to St Peter "Sorry pal, you signed a billion year contract. Over that way with the other suckers." He points to a group of other souls in no mans land looking really unhappy chained to typewriters doing whatever the fuck it is that Scientologist employees do.

"Guess you should have read the fine print a bit better, eh?"

The Cult of Scientology is just that, a cult. A nasty, evil, conniving, manipulative dangerous cult that should be shut down, made illegal and all it's executives jailed.

People can believe in who and what they want. That's freedom of religion.

Letting this dangerous nasty little Mafia* club survive, that's not being intolerant of peoples beliefs. It's just stopping a company that screws over vulnerable people from making any more money.

Seriously, there's a reason why there's a serious, large-scale protest organisation combating this mob. They're a business masquerading as a 'church'. They skin money off people (who often times have serious mental illness that the CoS stops them from getting treatment for) and shut down anyone who tries to stop them using all manner of illegal techniques, as detailed in this exposé on Wikileaks.

These are the same people who infiltrated the IRS in the USA to such an extent the government itself admitted there was probably no chance of finding everyone in the IRS that was a CoS plant. Strangely enough, a few later the IRS gave the CoS religious status, and then proceeded to give it special breaks that even real religious don't get, like allowing CoS members to tax-deduct their hugely expensive CoS 'lessons', effectively meaning the CoS is paid by the US Govt, since that money would otherwise be tax money. Their evil little paws go deep in many countries and many governments. Only last year the Chief Constable of the Metropolitan Police opened up the CoS HQ in London. Dangerous people. Hope to see you all at the protests this weekend, if I can make it.

Oh, and try and ignore the pathetically obvious CoS posters. There's 2 kinds; one that comes in and backs the Cult to the hilt, claiming religious freedoms, even though the CoS is not a religion, merely a business that makes money off of religious believers (kinda like a Bible seller, if you can imagine a Bible that you're not allowed to read unless you sign secrecy documents and it'll cost you around $50,000), and then there's the other type that comes in bashing said religion, and being extremely rude, usually invoking the Nazis and anti-semitic comment in order to persuade the common folk that anyone protesting the Cult's scams must be a Neo-Nazi.

Don't let the cultists fool you.

*Apologies to any "genuine honest Sicilian businessmen" out there. At least you're honest about what you do, and don't try and make out you're "helping people" when you assist them with their piscine slumber interests.

Steady mate - it wasn't the Chief Constable of the Met who was there, it was the divisional commander of the local Snow Hill police station. And he didn't open it, just welcomed the fruitloops.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this cult, but you need to be accurate. Otherwise all your points are open to question. And so it goes...

PS: where IS the IT angle?

Cheers,

Matt

If one manages to untangle 23:23's grammar his/her argument seems to amount to the following:

"I have heard about scientific studies which don't seem very scientific to me. They don't seem very scientific to me because I can think of other explanations for the data besides the ones the researchers reached.

"I don't know much about these studies, as you can tell by the fact that I can only describe them very vaguely. However, I have chosen these studies to represent all of mainstream science. Obviously, since these studies (at least in my vague summary) are completely BS, the only other alternative that makes sense -- OBVIOUSLY -- is an organized religion! Such a religion would be based on the following principles:

"* these studies I refer to vaguely are NOT science;

"* sticking tin cans attached to a primitive ohmmeter into someone's hands and claiming it can read their thoughts (and that those thoughts, as "mental mass", have a weight that will register on a conventional scale) IS science;

"* claiming that someone has a rash on their backside because their mother asked for an aspirin when they were in the womb and their little fetal ears heard it as "ass burn" IS science;

"* claiming that it's not only safe to stick someone in a sauna for hours on end and give them doses of niacin far above the level at which niacin is known to do liver damage, but that it will actually make any drugs or toxins trapped in their fatty tissues (including the ones that are water-soluble and won't be in their fatty tissues to begin with) come out through their skin as colorful ooze, IS science, because a science-fiction writer who dropped out of college said it was so."

Sorry, 23:23. There are some poorly done scientific studies out there, yes. But never, not even in comparison to the WORST ones you can find, will Scientology EVER look sensible or respectable.

CoS Vs. PRQ

Yeah...this is gonna be a blast.... ;^)

(Where's the coat rack?!?!)

You definitely seem to be the second kind of CoS poster.

Aside: The benefit of being an atheist is I don't get sucked into foolish things such as CoS. The draw back of being an atheist is I can't say they are doing anything wrong because they are simply humans like me maximizing their happiness and minimizing their pain.

Sucks to be human ...

Oh well.

This cult has me infuriated. They are now posting videos on YouTube posing as Anonymous and making death threats against people who have nothing to do with anything. Of course they don't allow ratings or comments on these videos to stop Anonymous from discrediting them. The CoS does not realize that these actions will strengthen the resolve of Anonymous and will make the collective grow and grow to a point where they will outnumbers members of the CoS. If you are aware of all of the CoS' atrocities both past and present and want to do something about it then you too are Anonymous. Anonymous has no leadership and no official membership requirements.

If you want the REAL, UNFILTERED DATA on why Anonymous is doing what it does, go to march15.org, youfoundthecard.com and finally, enturbulation.org.

If you want to read numerous accounts of life inside the CoS from people who have left, go to exscientologykids.com.

tom cruise any1 see the vid ? myself I have better things to do. Like writing on here........

Why in Xenu's name do they get so much attention?

Mine's the one with the penny-a-line sci fi paperback in the pocket.

Where is the line between a religion and a cult?

I'm not calling anything in particular a religion or a cult. I'm not sticking up for or condemning any organization or group, despite having my own membership and likes/dislikes. But I have thought about this, and I can't produce an answer.

A religion is...?

A cult is...?

It seems to me this is similar to the whole "what is marriage" thing we here in The States are struggling with. There are multiple definitions, and the government gives things to people who are married, and therefore has a horse in the race of defining marriage, even though it's not clear it should. (It's not clear it shouldn't, either.)

There are two definitions I can come up with.

The first, my own thinking (although perhaps not novel), is that a religion is anything calling itself a religion that happens to be true. So we just have to prove the existence of God*, go talk to him, ask him some questions, and we'll have that sorted out. (*Or Allah, or multiple gods, or whatever other higher powers are supposed to exist by the calling-itself-a-religion in question.)

The second is something I heard a long time ago: the difference between a cult and a religion is the size of its membership.

Please, someone, put forth some superior definitions.

An employer in the 90s hired a woman from a temp agency to "work the phones." Everybody was laid off and a mountain of their disconnected phones was dumped in the lobby for her to untangle, catalog, and package.

At least she could quit.

Time is of no Relative Importance to the AESThetan. 42 Feed the Need that Drives One to XXXXCellents is More than Enough to Satisfy Anyone and Everyone with Time on their Hands and Paper Money to Spend. And IT Creates ITs Own Very Astute Driver Operating System which is Globally Inclusive of Exclusivity. ........ for Added Www00mph...... Passion.:-)

The Medicine which is destroying the Cancerous Wall Street? Money per se is not the Sub-Prime Credit Crunch Problem, it is the Criminal Ethics and/or the complete Lack of Moral Ethics [and that would be an interesting Defense Admission in Mitigation/Robust Offence] right at the Top of their Systems, which permit and reward the Enterprise which spreads their Failures.

No wonder now they only can play on their own, amongst themselves, with false hopes in more confetti, simply confirming the diagnosis and prognosis .... Brain Dead and not Fit for Future Purpose.

I think if you check the employment laws in most states (in the US) and in other countries, there is a maximum length of time you can lock up your life to one employer... I think it's generally between five and seven years, and almost always no more than ten years... so that so-called employment contract could not stand up in court... not without taking over the courts.

But, I suppose COS has plans for the contingency too...

Flame because I expect the COS freaks will do their best to burn me.

Late Night Larry

If you want a laugh, go to Tottenham Court Road and take the "free stress test" offered by the CoS (just a short walk from Goodge Street station)

Within minutes they're giving you a speech about how stresed you are and how the book they have large piles off sitting around will help you become unstressed....

I've been half tempted to sign up to their brand of crazy simply to find out how screwed up they really are...

"He points to a group of other souls in no mans land looking really unhappy chained to typewriters doing whatever the fuck it is that Scientologist employees do." .... By lglethal Posted Thursday 13th March 2008 00:31 GMT

Who needs Action when got Wwwords AIResearch ...... for the Virtually Minded Spiritually Uplifted.

"doing whatever the fuck it is that Scientologist employees do." Which is, Iglethal?

Although this unauthorised but extensively researched bio of Hubbard is out of print and commanding silly prices on Amazon, it can be freely and legally downloaded from http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm

(gzip version available someway down the page)

Interesting reading.

As for CoS vs PRQ? My money is on the pirates.

I'd try to get at least 0.001 % of my vacation time up-front, and a little advance pay too (same percentage).

scientology idiots seem to believe in an afterlife and magic spirits. When they are just about to die they can repent and beg the "real" god for mercy, the god of Abraham, the garden of Eden dude. When facing death they all chicken out. It is a cowards cult after all.

I expect a larger than normal amount of Anonymous Coward posts in this thread.

"Tax the churches. Tax the business owned by the churches." - Frank Zappa.

There's just been a rather suspicious opening of a little shop called "Ron's Bookstore" which stocks nothing but Hubbard's books here in Vienna. It's well painted and lit, with a flat panel tv showing some video footage and comfy leather chairs.

And it's choc full of Hubbard's books. Should I be scared?

While wikileaks has some experience of companies trying to take them and their hosting servers down, I doubt they've faced something quite as mentalist and prepared to go to any lengths as the cult freaks of Scientology.

btw - who wants to bet a fiver that this poor guy whose contract it purports to be, goes missing sometime soon?!

> What a vicious, evil cult

Well no...scientologists are the wannabees, also-rans and rank amateurs in religious stakes.

This article doesn't really describe anything common, petty criminals [like Mitnick for example] described and did years ago. "Phone a company and pretend you're someone else"

Wow. It's hardly the Spanish Inquisition.

The people chasing scientologists are just obsessive compulsive. Once they were the obsessive compulsives that believe Scientology is all true - reading and writing the same asinine documents they are now exposing.

Now they are obsessive compulsive that it's not true. But, anyone sane can see that it's bollocks anyway, so what's the great exposé?

There are far, far more people who believe the crap in so-called "mainstream" religions - and plenty who will happily tell their kids everything from the tooth fairy and santa claus to monsters and God are all real and true. In purely numbers terms, this makes Scientology a bit part player.

If you want to see what how the members of the cult of Santa claus can behave if their religion is challenged, just tell a few primary school kids that he's not real. You'll see how Scientology is no more of a worry than any group of nutters who believe something [or wish someone else to believe something] that isn't true. The parents at your local school included.

...if CoS acctually turned out to be the only religion that came close to the truth about god.

If that did turn out to be true, I think I'd go commit suicide before they got to me.

I hope El Reg is ok with dealing with this bunch of weirdos.

I think it is very well known that when ever an article about this pseudo religion goes up on any site, their amry of Lord Xeenu fanboys will flock to the available comments section in order to prove to everyone that their legally approved factets show that we are all dumb and they are all correct.

No doubt we have all been profiled and catalogued by these lovely people as soon as we read the story.

Now, can someone pass me my tinfoil hat please?

"Which is, Iglethal?"

Surprising that you spelled lglethal with a capital i there instead of a small L, amanfrommars. Not very copy-paste there...

More on topic, I agree with the thoughts above on religion's exemption from many many things. Free thought and free speech, go for it, with the old quotation that went something like "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it". Charities get tax exemption; if a religion is categorised as a kind of charity for the entertainment and moral straightening of at least part of the community, then I'm all for it. But the utter polarity of religion as a be-all and end-all (whether considering traditional or CoS) is taking it too far.

Isn't that a bit like selling your soul... well, not selling.. err. Renting your soul??

Scientology always amuses me, where is the harm really, they are like any other religion, in some ways they are more open about it.

I am not sure where the motivation comes from to go after them, so yes I am beginning to think it is the OCD crowd, picking on a low level target. You are not forced to join them or pay them, unlike some of the organizations we do have in place.

Scientology does bite back though, not as harshly as some of our institutions, but they do seem to have some fight in them. I think it is the brainwashing of modern Christianity that has caused this, combined with media psyops to create a distracting element to take the heat off the real problems a society may face. So, yes when looked at objectively Scientology is a good scape goat, a whipping boy used to bury other stories that have more impact on our lives.

www.whyaretheydead.net/

No go tell their families that it doesn't matter because some other religion did something worse 500 years ago.

"The first, my own thinking (although perhaps not novel), is that a religion is anything calling itself a religion that happens to be true. So we just have to prove the existence of God*, go talk to him, ask him some questions, and we'll have that sorted out. (*Or Allah, or multiple gods, or whatever other higher powers are supposed to exist by the calling-itself-a-religion in question.)"

Unless you've met Xenu for a chat, then that makes scientology a cult just like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. Who has ever said that the definition of a religion includes "something that is true"?

"With this [psychology] being passed as science you can understand some of the attraction of an organised religion primarily founded on its being bull."

Founded by a paranoid schizophrenic second rate sci-fi author who believed that millions of years ago the evil galatic ruler Xenu dealt with overpopulation by slaughtering billions of aliens by dropping them in volcanoes on Earth (then known as Teegeeack) and then nuking the volcanoes. He then captured and brainwashed their souls with videos about ancient Earth history so that they ended up attaching themselves to early humans and are the cause of all of our neurosis and problems up to this very day.

You're right. That's a far more plausible than the idea that people who think about violence a lot might be more likely to commit violent acts.

The only true sauce of enlightenment is His Noodly Goodness himself.

RAmen

There does not seem to be any consideration so the contract won't be binding (neither in England nor in the US).

I used to be an atheist but I found myself getting so annoyed by other fundamentalist atheists (E.g.: Dawkins) that I now take an apatheist attitude.

I still think organised religions/cults are dangerous, not just to society as a whole, but also to their own followers. But, if it wasn't religions it would be the government, or something else.

Also, it's an interesting look people get on their face when you tell them you don't give a flying feck if there [is a god|are gods] or not. :-)

In some ways I agree that there are bigger fish to fry, but we are sleep-walking into having our public institutions seriously compromised by these money-grabbing, mentalist, cockbadgers (great word - thanks Other Steve!).

I'd also use the word "ass-hats" to describe them. That's another great word.

Paris, 'coz she's a fellow mentalist.

Army of Lord Xeenu fanboys...best line of the day so far.

I thought "Twittercide results in banality Bloodbath" had it there, but this nudges it into a close second.

<pedant>Shouldn't that be Army of Lord Xeenu fanbois though?</pendant>

No, I've not got anything better to do.

This is a religion, which it's "Followers" say has existed for thousands of years, yet has "religious texts" protected by copyright, which in the UK is the life time of the author plus 75 years and since L. Ron Hubbard died in 1986, as the Author his copyright will end in the UK in 2061. If it is thousands of years old it cannot be copyrighted.

"I think it is very well known that when ever an article about this pseudo religion goes up on any site, their amry of Lord Xeenu fanboys will flock to the available comments section in order to prove to everyone that their legally approved factets show that we are all dumb and they are all correct."

Did you know you can actually get a widget that tells you when anything judged either pro-palestinian or anti-zionist is posted, so sufficient numbers of rightwing wackjobs can go and crowd out the comments with "ur an antisemite!!1" posts?

Did you know the Vatican has the world's oldest intelligence agency?

I've always held a mixed opinion of LRH; on the one hand him (and his brethren) are scum who bilk the gullible and sick, but on the other hand he found a business plan that worked.

I'm in TCR this weekend, might stop by and see if the girl with the gasmask and the cracking ahem T-shirt from enturbulation.org is outside.

Smiley face because I'm an OT-3 and Tom lends me Katie every now and again, and also because Scarlett failed his audition.

"The people chasing scientologists are just obsessive compulsive. Once they were the obsessive compulsives that believe Scientology is all true - reading and writing the same asinine documents they are now exposing.

Now they are obsessive compulsive that it's not true. But, anyone sane can see that it's bollocks anyway, so what's the great exposé?"

The bollocks *is* the great exposé. Without ex-victims to release that stuff we would only have the public image, which is that Scientology is basically a self-help group giving you guidance on how to live and providing an alternative to clinical, academic psychology. We would probably see it as a somewhat kooky but harmless group with some token celebrities in tow, of no more interest than Kabbalah and Madonna. We would have no idea that they believe that everyone is infected by alien souls dumped into a volcano by an evil emperor from outer space.

I was accosted by that bloke on Tottenham Court Rd this afternoon. I told him to "fuck off".

Honestly, that was as polite a thing as I could think of saying - I accidently fell into the clutches of the CoS nutcases in Auckland quite a few years ago and will always remember the experience -

My girlfriend and I we out and about on a Sunday morning, and thought it would be a laugh to take the "free IQ test" advertised on a sandwich board.

When we'd done these tests and had the results analysed, I discovered our mistake as these people separated us and launched into some serious headfuck sessions, deliberately designed to set us against each other in an effort to sell us copies of one of L.Ron Hubbard books.

Ok, so you have served your "1 Billion years" contract. The Sun is turning into a red giant, and the Earth is getting a tad uncomfortable. Now your immortal soul, or what ever is left of it after Ron and his mates have completely ***ked it over, is at a loose end. You can't go down to the pub, as that melted ages ago... What the hell do you do now?

Frankly, if you can't step back and do a simple reality check before you join this cult, you deserve everything that's coming to you. The rest of us however will have evolved and moved on... Maybe this is what Darwin had in mind?

The truth is that LRH was a paranoid psychopath.

I do believe his main goal was to make money, make more money and have someone else make money for you. But after swallowing his kool-aid, he began to believe his own bullshit just as much as his followers did.

Unfortunately, he was a profilic writter with a huge imagination and lots of time on his hands, so he wrote and wrote and wrote all kinds of garbage that will be around for years to come. And Scientology will survive as long as there are people out there gullible enough to believe in it. "There's a fool born every minute" as the saying goes.

One thing everyone has to realize is that no matter what is posted on the internet proving that L. Ron Hubbard and his "Church" lied, and continues to lie, you'll never get a current member to agree that it is true.

They are not allowed to question the validity of anything other than Hubbard's "Tech". Their affirmation is that everything written by L Ron Hubbard is the true and definitive word. It can not be altered or disputed ( even if it has been since his death in 1986 ).

Hubbard, the Church and anything positive written about the church is the only truth. Anything negative is false.

I was in the COS for four years, getting trained as an auditor (one who listen to others telling their problems) and all is true:

the contract (which is unenforcable)

the Xenu thing (secret scriptures)

the OSA thing (there are responsible for the largest, most pervasive infiltration of the US goverment. Ever)

So there.

No thanks, I have it on my back now.

May I finish my drink ?

"""This article doesn't really describe anything common, petty criminals [like Mitnick for example] described and did years ago. "Phone a company and pretend you're someone else""""

Thats exactly why this is rather impressive: A 'religion' has criminal practices as documented procedure in their marketing manual. Mitnick got sent to jail for it, but these guys just skip taxes.

I don't really think that CoS is any worse than any mainstream religion - Moving around child molestors and hiding all of the evidence in the Vatican is hardly a legit marketing scheme, and the same goes for terrorist attacks in response to a cartoon.

But if you're going to rid the world of organized morons, this is at least a good place to start.

scientology is gay

http://www.churchofmyconology.com

The religion of Scientology already enabled me to improve my live. I can now live without my medication and next month I will become an F14 fighter pilot, just like Tom Cruise !

So COS prey on the vulnerable ?

COS is all based on made up bullshit ?

And the difference between them and other religions is ? Fucked if I know.

COS are all fruitloops, i just wish a danish newspaper would run some cartoons of xenu with his friends sonic the hedgehog and harry potter

the only time l ron's name should be shown in print is on his own chapter in the peado register, read about his time sailing around on hms kiddie fiddle

tux because hes a force for good not evil

"I am not sure where the motivation comes from to go after them, so yes I am beginning to think it is the OCD crowd, picking on a low level target. You are not forced to join them or pay them, unlike some of the organizations we do have in place."

You are not the only person to advocate this sort of isolationist stance. A surprising number of people have voiced sentiments that no matter how horrible the things that Scientology is doing to its own people, it should be viewed as "internal matters" and that it would be inappropriate to interfere.

Such an attitude is naive, however. Scientology certainly doesn't have a "live and let live" attitude. Scientology is the group that conducted the single biggest domestic espionage operation in United States history. Scientology will not stop and ask "will this bother you?" before they present falsified evidence to Congress trying to lobby to limit YOUR mental health options to only the ones that THEY deem acceptable. And God help you if Scientology decides you fall into the category of "Suppressive Persons"; the word of Hubbard was that such people could be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow".

@Apatheist

I used to think Dawkins was a bit keen. But then I read his 'God Delusion' book, and actually he's quite nice. Give it a go. It is bloody good, I kept finding myself going 'hmm, there's a flaw in your argument, you haven't examined xxx' and then on the next page going 'ah, oh yes you have. Really well.' and scrubbing out the note I'd written to write to him.

@everyone

I was definitely under the impression that L Ron wrote CoS as a joke. effectively testing the theory of memes before it was ever formalised. I am sure I saw or read Isaac Asimov say that, and he was a contemporary of Hubbards (and a considerably better author in this correspondent's humble opinion). Of course it does go to show that if you put the right structures in place you can get people to believe any old bollocks. Oh, and zig heil. Otherwise you won't realise I'm a stooge.

Do they practice free/easy sex?

If so I could definitely be convinced,

Paris - because she does.

Wikileaks, like Wikipedia and Wiki-everything-else, is just an online forum where any anonymous geek can spread lies about anything they want. And it's even more effective if several friends gang up to spread those lies simultaneously. It means absolutely nothing.

If the Scientology cult really is doing something wrong, all these losers should be able to convince at least one policeman, at least one senator, at least one mayor, at least one government staffer, at least one FBI agent, somebody, ANYBODY in power who might listen to your conspiracy theories. I'm waiting for those congressional investigations against Scientology but they never seem to happen.

If these people really had proof of wrongdoing by Scientology, it would be super simple to go through proper law enforcement channels and put a stop to it. Oh, but that's not as much FUN as picketing churches in masks, hacking websites, and phoning in prank-call pizza orders, now is it?

> Thats exactly why this is rather impressive: A 'religion' has criminal practices as documented procedure in their marketing manual.

Well perhaps, but bear in mind that the other fruitcakes in the article have been DoS attacking the first group of fruitcakes.

So it seems no great mystery or surprise that groups of fruitcakes bend / break laws because of their fruitcakery. Each perhaps knowing it, but believing their "cause" justifies it.

My point earlier was that, in fruitcake terms these are lightweights - but you seem to agree with that anyway.

As for spleen

> Without ex-victims to release that stuff we would only have the public image,

Victims of what? Being f**kwits? Sorry, but like all religions it's self-evident nonsense. There's no need to get a document from the religion to know that Christianity, or Scientology or a.n.other is nonsense.

These ex-members are fruitcakes. By definition of being members once. You shouldn't believe a single thing they say without stacks of independently obtained and verified evidence and you certainly shouldn't trust their judgement.

These are people who would have invented and said anything to support Scientology [and probably did] and, through the same personality [which after a 30 second glance at a a few anti- sites will be apparent straight away] will invent and say anything anti- it too...

The only two things you need to consider is that (a) when these people believe something they aren't going to be convinced , no matter how clear the evidence against what they believe, that it isn't true and (b) that their judgement isn't sufficient to determine whether what they believe is true or not. If that's your witness. Good luck :)

That's almost as silly as saying without the documents from Santa Claus's ex-helpers leaving Lapland that were published recently we wouldn't know what Santa Claus was really like.Without that document we might have thought Santa was like a kooky but harmless Argos?

No, any group of people calling themselves a religion are self-evidently going to be talking nonsense. The irony is that some of the antis want the "religion" description removing. When it's the single thing that tells everyone they are fruitcakes.