@KarlTh

> I think a lot of people are getting the impression that they do. [Linux users expecting Windows users to transfer]

Ah yes - that's likely to be certain sections of the media at work, busily quoting fanboy hype as fact...

> A constant problem on Windows forums is Linux Fanboys telling everyone that the solution to every problem they have is to "install Ubuntu".

Yep, that drives me mad too! But these rabid fanboys pop up on SUSE-related groups saying the same thing so they're just trolls - not even fanboys.

> XX this - I'm going to install Linux!" - because, unfortunately, the Fanboys have made them think that they won't have driver issues, bugs, problems to solve and so on on Linux - that it will "just work".

That's an unfortunate end result because although very many Windows problems simply don't exist in Linux (and for most users requiring 'ordinary' email/browsing etc. it *does* "just work"), there may still be the odd tweak required - witness the situation you commented on about the garbled display. Certain manufacturers don't help much by anally refusing to issue any details on their chippery (yes Broadcomm, I'm scowling at *you*) which leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the newly-converted Linux user - the very last person who should suffer from this deliberate information drought. The solution is simple, but I can appreciate that for a Windows user who would have this support built-in (since Broadcomm won't speak anything *but* Windows) it would seem an additional complication to apply the sideways step of having to ask, find and install the wrapper which make the Windows drivers work under Linux. (once past that, the Wireless setup's about as quick & dull as it is with Windows)

> which they won't if they've got an SiS chipset, a PS/2 mouse

Hmm - quirks with various SiS chipsets seem to pop up all over the place. There was a similar thing with the early SATA implementations too, unless the motherboard used a particularly well-documented chipset (the name of which escapes me now!).

> Presumably the next thing they do is buy a Mac. Or a Speak and Spell.

Well I'm sure you've seen Mac fanboys trumpeting the life-enhancing aspects of the Mac in Windows groups - they're a regular "attraction" in Linux groups too. But I can't say I've seen any Speak-n-Spell fanboys. Too busy thumping the keys with their knuckles, I expect :)

> there *are* some Linux users who enjoy parading their superior knowledge rather than actually helping.

Absolutely; they're a royal pain in the sit-upon. Er, but I've known more than a handful of MCSE's who like to tell us how *easy* it is to just click a button - they're generally silenced the next time the wheels drop off the (Windows) print server and an office floor is left without printers.

> There are newbies, mostly from Windows, who have swallowed the crap and start acting like divs when they find that *they've still got to learn how to use it!*

This is by far the most difficult obstacle I've encountered, and I often feel like sticking pins into a little Gates manikin for being responsible for a whole generation of computer "users" who have been encouraged to have absolutely no understanding of any aspect of it. But they always seem to forget that once, they had to learn how to use Windows...

> The question is, then, how to tone down the Fanboys, since they're the root cause

My weapon of choice would be a flame-thrower, but I can't find an IP-enabled one.

> We need to make people aware that Linux is *not* a Windows replacement

Absolutely, if all they expect to do is flop down in front of the keyboard and assume everything will be identical. Much of it is very similar (same with switching to a Mac, really) but they still need to be aware that although it's just a tool and they can make it do everything they're used to doing with Windows, it's still a different tool which needs a modicum of re-learning to achieve the same ends.

Hmm well, do everything except games - but they're heavily wrapped up in the proprietary DX9/10. Once upon a time MS was all behind Open/GL: how different things would have been if they'd continued. Which, of course, explains why they didn't.

> But if your idea is a PC which works *out of the box* to play music, watch telly and surf the web, then actually I'd point at a pre-installed Vista Home Premium (with Firefox, naturally ;) )

Heh - Firefox GOOD! Actually (and having fairly recently installed WinXP), I'm amazed at just how *bad* a Windows new installation experience still is. On the same hardware I'd installed KUbuntu and aside from supplying a few bits of LAN-related information, I didn't have to provide anything else before being rewarded with a 1680x1050 24-bit desktop with my three sound cards, Bluetooth, DVD/CD writers etc. all working perfectly. For the "domestic" user, there will always be issues with immediately playable commercial DVDs because of the licensing situation wrt CSS: with Linux being open-source, there's no company with which to strike a deal and have the support built-in. Distribution suppliers will probably always fight shy of including it by default (especially in the USA and Germany, where to do so would be illegal) until the media pigopolists finally realise they're shooting themselves in the foot. But... it's a simple download and a right-click|install to add the necessary support to play commercial DVDs.

> But enough musing. I've got to try to build this bleedin' thing I need on OpenSuSE now.

Nah, it's easy! All you need to do is make/make install and then edit the... Oops, sorry!

Thanks for the chat, and have fun with Linux.

Yeah but no but yeah but

>> But don't expect the vast majority of Windows users to transfer if you make it difficult.

>It's not difficult; just NOT WINDOWS and as far as I know, Linux users don't really *have* any expectations of Windows users transferring to Linux - theres no "battle for hearts & minds" going on. If they want to use Linux: meh, great; if they want to stay with Windows: meh, great. It's not like there's a commercial organisation dependent on hoovering up new users to remain successful.

I think a lot of people are getting the impression that they do. A constant problem on Windows forums is Linux Fanboys telling everyone that the solution to every problem they have is to "install Ubuntu".

But I take your points. I've often seen Windows users, when presented with a solution, say "**** this, I'm going to install Linux!" - because, unfortunately, the Fanboys have made them think that they won't have driver issues, bugs, problems to solve and so on on Linux - that it will "just work". It'd be interesting to see if a month later they're bitching that they can't get their mouse to work on Ubuntu (which they won't if they've got an SiS chipset, a PS/2 mouse and haven't edited the kernel line, for example). Presumably the next thing they do is buy a Mac. Or a Speak and Spell.

So, where are we?

I think we'd agree that there *are* some Linux users who enjoy parading their superior knowledge rather than actually helping. There *are* some Fanboys out there who think they're on a mission from Linus to get everyone using Linux, and that is best done by implying that all their woes will be gone the moment they slide the Ubundu DVD into their drive. There are newbies, mostly from Windows, who have swallowed the crap and start acting like divs when they find that *they've still got to learn how to use it!*

The question is, then, how to tone down the Fanboys, since they're the root cause, along with Lusers who expect to be able to use their computer - Windows or Linux - whilst knowing bugger all about how it works? We need to make people aware that Linux is *not* a Windows replacement - it is a different approach, a different OS which *may* suit some users better. To me, as an IT professional, it's a tool - I'm currently evaluating a Linux solution and a Windows server solution to the same problem, and it's far from clear so far who's going to win. But if your idea is a PC which works *out of the box* to play music, watch telly and surf the web, then actually I'd point at a pre-installed Vista Home Premium (with Firefox, naturally ;) )

But enough musing. I've got to try to build this bleedin' thing I need on OpenSuSE now.