never, ever be first. Early adopters gets screwed, be it Vista, XP back when it first came out, the iPhone, VoIP, or a hosted of "latest and greatest" items.

I'm waiting 60 days or for 10.5.1, which ever comes first.

I have Unsanity's Application Enhancer installed and my Leopard upgrade went flawlessly. Considering that Apple's instructions plainly state to disconnect any external peripherals before upgrading, sounds like El Reg is trying to turn garden variety PEBCAK into news.

I've had kernel panics on OS X before, but where does the Blue Screen Of Death come from, shouldn't it be a gray screen with a transparency window in the center or something? This doesn't sound like any Mac I know? Someone take a photo of it and post it so we can see if it's the Microsoft Standard Blue or some more artistic shade of blue that would fit more to the Apple styling conventions.

>To remedy, users were instructed to rip a technology known as APE, short for

>application enhancement, from the Leopard's maw. The process is too gory for us

>to print here, but suffice it to say that, among other things, it had users use a

>command line to purge files with names like "Enhancer.prefpane" and

>"com.unsanity.ape.plist."

APE, short for "Application Enhancer" is a third-party app (look at com.unsanity.ape.plist - this signifies that it's an app called "APE" from unsanity.com) that has deep and potentially unsafe hooks (/hacks) into the system, to modify applications and system functions. It's not really a surprise that it screws up when an entirely new version of the OS is dropped in there in front of it (It should check this, and not load...)

http://unsanity.com/haxies/ape/ and refer to http://www.unsanity.com/products/compatibility where it is listed as "not compatible with Leopard".

That is why I recommend an "Archive and install" not an "Upgrade install". You just don't know whether your previous apps will fully work with the new system ESPECIALLY if they are hacks like this.

Search for the post by "Chris Mcculloh" and read all the replies to it.

And from reading that thread, nearly everyone who did an "Archive and install - where the installer puts all the previous system files in a folder called Previous System and installs a fresh new system, instead of overwriting in place, had a successful install.

Reading any lower, I see that someone else reports another workaround for those ones that still don't work. Look for the post by indiekiduk. He says that there is another problem with ShapeShifter - a third party theming tool that again, messes with system internals.

And further down, 4F!ller recommends removing iScroll - a third party trackpad driver.

So as far as I've seen, the vast majority of these issues come from third-party software that has been installed. This isn't Apple's fault, and Apple should not have to support these bits of software. These pieces of software SHOULD check to see what OS version they are running on, and demand that they be updated if the software is installed. It's kind-of like expecting engine bits from your old car to work in your new car without damaging it (if we must bring out the inaccurate car analogies). That said, IMO, Apple should make Archive Install the default, not the in-place install.

"but where does the Blue Screen Of Death come from, shouldn't it be a gray screen with a transparency window in the center or something?"

You know that blank light blue screen when you shut down? That shade of blue. My guess is that it's stopping critical system processes from starting up, and leaving the system with no apps running (not even the login window).

"Caused by associating with Intel Chips? "

Hmmm. That was an interesting question, gollux. Are problems peculiar to certain particular Chipped machines.

I have Unsanity's Application Enhancer installed, and I ran the Leopard upgrade without a hitch. The instructions tell you to disconnect any external drives before beginning the upgrade. Might this be a case of people not bothering to RTFM?

Stop the presses, a user did something stupid!

This sounds dubious, I installed my shiny new copy of Leopard today right off the truck, and it was flawless, and faster to install than Tiger was.

I've heard some rumor that if your old Tiger install had "issues" it was better to start fresh and thats what I did, but I couldn't even get the BETAS to crash, and they were less than perfect. And I have done a fair share of installs on different hardware.

Show is a picture of this "blue screen" or personally most of us are going to chalk this up as a mean spirited FUD attack on a day of record OS X sales that would make Ballmer wet himself.

I bet you can hear his teeth grinding all the way across Redmond.

APE uses hacks into the kernel to offer small "enhancements" to the UI. They're often to blame for crashes to the window server and other interface services. Unsanity, who provide the architecture for these haxies, warns that they may cause system instability. Apple hates them and often criticises them for not following the recommended development paths.

As the kernel has been replaced it's not a surprise that they aren't working, and are stopping the GUI from fully loading. Technically they probably haven't kernel panic'd from the description (not that it helps).

I would only really recommend "Upgrade" on the install if your system if free of this sort of thing and fairly standard. I used "Archive & Install" which was slow and allowed me use the same Users I'd already set up. I'm replacing this machine in a couple of months anyway so I'll be able to "Erase & Install" a clean system then.

BTW I've so far found that most things work without any issues. QuickLook is something I already don't want to live without. I've only found one thing that outright refuses to work, a custom trackpad driver (SideTrack) which I will miss as I fall into familiarity. A very solid progression of Mac OS X.

It has to be said that associating with Intel did give Apple the performance boost they needed to stay in the race, but all the pain that goes with it is just heaped on top.

Lets look at where the real problem is and look at some of the high end systems....

Starting with your basic Linux.... UI ugly.... operationaly excellent and stable on Intel.

Irix.... soon to be unsupported but UI appalling.... operationaly rock solid on Mips processors

Novell.... OMG where did the UI designers come from, but rock solid....

The list can go on, OSX underneath..... rock solid, add the eye candy for the User and BANG problems.

You tell me what the issue is here!

Is there a reason why this story isn't being covered by the above reporter who was espousing how wonderful Leopard would be only yesterday?

The blue screen is during the boot process, where you normally see the 'Starting Mac OS X' or Login windows.

Its often caused by corrupted caches, or third part applications causing problems on boot - I work in an AASP - yesterday we all pretty much threw leopard on around the same time, some doing complete clean installs by choice (Me being on of them - I wanted a fresh start) Others doing upgrades - while we noticed all the upgrade macs bluescreening on boot - if they were left about 5 minutes, it generally cleared itself and carried on as normal. We put it down to an issue updating the keychains, since in most cases (bar one or two, which used third party apps that break in leopard/break leopard) the Keychain was never actually updated and transferred accross to the new account.

Not a very helpful comment I know but every new OS we've ever seen has had issues when released into the wild and that includes nix's and winhoes. It's hardly surprising.

Give it a week it'll be fixed and everyone will be happy again.

Good point. Perhaps it has some pretty reflections, or a metallic sheen, to make the whole BSOD experience a bit more pleasant so as not to panic the unsuspecting fairy using the thing.

Bloody Macs.

Leopard is bringing in at least 2 new pieces of functionality that previously required APE applications - the ones i have installed on my Tiger box are a transparent dock and multiple desktops (i forget what they are called!).

I believe APE ties itself pretty closely into the kernel, which means that when someone tries to install something new on top of that, OSX goes into the corner and cries.

Sounds to me like someone didnt bother testing every single piece of software in the multiverse - people should be sacked over this travesty! [/sarcasm]

The BSOD sounds a bit bizarre, though - i thought installation problems got a black screen, the grey screen being reserved for fatal problems while running normally?

And why am i posting something almost sensible at the weekend?

Rule 8 invoked..

never be first, never be last & never volunteer for anything.

Mate of mine has loaned me an old mac mini - pre-intel - which he upgraded on friday. It's fast, smooth & impressive. By comparison, my dell desktop, which is a similar age, isn't even vista compatible.

I've always regarded apple fanboiz as style conscious fools with more money than sense, my opinion is changing, i might even buy one!

"Caused by associating with Intel Chips? "

- Do you know what a computer is? Are you from past?

The problem is that this happens when people try to do an Update on a non-standard altered system which has seen software "bend" and replace system files, especially in /sbin/ and /etc/. A bit like replacing some .dlls and wondering why other things crash depending on these dll's. We've seen this with early Leo builds, but it's not really an Apple problem.

On a "clean install" or "archived install" everything is OK.

Cheers

ron

ps, I'm not working for Apple but we've been testing Leo on a 1500+ IP's sized network including 10.4 & 10.5 servers and XSAN 1.4 ;-)

Once again my decision to abandon Mac in favour of Vista has been completely vindicated.

Clearly Apple is reduced to copying Microsoft.

Why they can't be original is beyond me.

Memo to Mac users: Get a Vista PC and experience a world where everything just works for a change.

Man, I wouldn't event attempt installing Vista by upgrading an XP installation. Don't upgrade major OS revisions, particularly when you've installed dodgy low level hacks like Application Enhancer (which I try to avoid like the plague anyway).

@gollux - the BSOD is probably the installer's blue background with no windows displayed.

Leopard is the first MacOS that includes Boot Camp in the installation; an application for running Micro$oft operating systems!

So yet again, we see that it boils down to, "Install Micro$oft software, get the blue screen of death".

Quite clearly, it's all Micro$oft's fault!

Oh yeah... That's why the world + dog are staying AWAY from Vista because 'everything just works'. Don't make me laugh!

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2201460/poor-vista-sales-hit-dixons

Application Enhancer is known malware. It interacts with root in unacceptable ways. Apple has counseled users not to install applications that use it for years. I retired Windowshade, one of Unsanity's applications, when I moved from my PowerBook G4 to my MacBook Pro four months ago. I guess some people still haven't gotten the message.

Funny to read comments that say that an update may fail if the install is somewhat non standard. I would expect that if so many Mac User have such a software installed that on an update Apple tells the user that this is incompatible and offers to remove or suggests to make a fresh install. But it looks like Apple doesnt care about that. I only can say that if we, who work on Linux distros would act like that (blame failures on updates on some third party tools) all would say that this happens only on Linux. Well its not. Rather the opposit. If Apple does an update it must overwrite the core components in order to get a working system what else? How could an update work if you are guessing that its a clean system?

Ha ha! ROFL. That's the funniest comment I've read all year!

Even the abuse of the Reg "Stupicon" is class.

I had the blue screen on my first couple of attempts to upgrade but then went for Archive and Install and everything went hunky dory. APE might be the culprit - I had Unsanity Fruitmenu running.

How the hell can this happen when all the hardware is the same.... Least Microsoft can say "we cannot test all hardware combinations". I'm not going to go on maybe the fanboys can remove BSOD from their arsenal now… Next stop with increased popularity of MacOS let’s see what the future holds in regards to spyware, adware and virii.

It's definitely not related to the Intel architecture, I had the same problem on my G5 Powermac. It can't be boot camp, my machine doesn't have it.

The "blue screen" isn't a BSOD in the Windows sense of the term. Instead, as a previous poster has said, it's a blank blue screen where you'd normally expect to see your user login icons.

I had the Application Enhancer installed, because I liked to have a transparent background on the dock, so I expect that's what the problem was. That'll teach me.

I can also confirm it's easily workable-round. I just ran the upgrade again in "archive and install" mode and it worked fine the second time. The only work I've had to do is reconfigure my printer and scanner, everything else just works, just like it always has.

At risk of sounding like a fanboi, even with this minor glitch there's no doubt that upgrading the OS on a Mac is easier and generally more foolproof than any other OS. I program on Windows and Linux for a living and I bought a Mac to provide some sanity when I get home at the end of the day. If I thought I could persuade my company to use them I definitely would.

As usual, Orlowski is right.

Day after day I have to listen to the disciples of Jobs bang on about how the Mac is superior and how bad it is the educational establishment I work for only provides Windows versions of software and that they are being discriminated against blah blah blah (I start to hear white noise after about 10 seconds of that)

This proves that the Mac OS is no better and no worse then Windows (for the record, I'm no fan of Gates and Ballmer but I use whatever gets the job done)

However, I view this as payback for the earache they give me.

So I say to all Mac die hards SHUT IT,NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR MAC,GO OUT AND GET A LIFE.

You bought a machine named after an overcoat from a company namd after a fruit so what can you expect.

Cry havoc and let loose George Ou, Ed Bott and the rest of the (f)lamers.

The only thing I hate about the Mac is all the hype.

Not talking about Mac users or Mac Fans, just the Fanboys.

You talk to certain Mac users and they will tell you with religious furor who every single computer problem is solved by switching to Apple.

When my uncle bought his first Mac he was bitterly disappointed. Not because his laptop had any real problems, but because of certain minor annoyances and problems which he was repeatedly told only happen to Windows users.

Macs are far from perfect just like any other computer.

PS after I installed XP in a virtual machine (for two Windows only Programs), and gave him some OSX training videos my Uncle now loves his Mac.

I mean, this comment thread was running out of laughable points...

The problem with most cases seems to be APE, not made by apple. Heck, as one poster pointed out, they even council against installing it.

Still seems to be a lot less problems so far than Vista.

So we are supposed to be surprised (Windows and Mac users) that OS X Leopard has been scuppered by some Mac users who installed software that hacks into the OS in the name of improvements, not content with what they got out of the box. Big deal. Anyone who has installed similar "improvements" to Windows has seen it all go pear-shaped come upgrade time. What do these reveller's in Apple's downfall [percieved by them] expect? Its nice and simple really - those who didn't install these utilities didn't suffer during upgrade. Doh! It really isn't that hard to see, is it? Instead of getting all ejacular about it, see the problem for what it is.

I have just upgraded a stock Mac Mini OS X Tiger to Leopard in just over an hour and with little to no intervention. Contrast the near-2 hours it took to re-install XP today, having to nurse it along its way to completion and then sit back and enjoy the wait for 86 service updates to install. Delightful, not. But both machines were stock installs. I will not allow these so-called "improvements" on my systems and thus they work as expected.

Being a user [and maintainer] of XP, Vista and OS X I can safely say that in a standardised environment OS X is head and shoulders above the Microsoft camp. No way is OS X as flaky as Vista (in all of this variants) and Leopard already is stable and well behaved out of the box unlike Vista.

But one mustn't complain too much about Microsoft OS - they do keep a whole industry in gainful employment. I gotta pay the mortgage somehow. Thanks Bill.

OK, so you Mac wearers, sorry, users, should take a lesson from Windoze sysadmins. Never, ever, EVER, ever do an upgrade (except if you're trying to do a data recovery and will be formatting in about 10mins after you've retrieved the files you need). Always start a fresh! I don't know how the Mac install process runs, but I'm assuming you can format/reload?

Should I ask Paris?

the login app has problems and apple have issued a update

they have also changed the software update look and feel as well as allowing download and not install...

grand thank you apple

Oh really

By George Flecknell

Posted Saturday 27th October 2007 12:51 GMT

IT Angle

"Caused by associating with Intel Chips? "

- Do you know what a computer is? Are you from past?

It's official, you have no sense of humor!

Being involved with catalog publishing, I definitely am from the past, having worked on Macs with Motorola, Power PC and currently Intel chips and from OS 6 thru OS X. The whole blue screen thing is something I expect from the Intel Powered, Windows XP running computer sitting on the desktop next to it, SO I find it kind of humorous. I'd think that Apple could choose some fancier color scheme to be displayed by the boot process so they'd not get laughed off the planet since Wintel owns BSOD by the majority.

Since I'm from the past, I've also worked on everything from DOS/PC XT forward to a current Xeon processor powered workstation.

So, I definitely do not know what a computer is.

BTW, anyone who tells you that Macs don't crash has never used one to do actual work. I've cursed them roundly through each OS that Apple has released. Since I've had to put up with reality, and expect a little "Truth In Advertising", I think I can poke a little fun at a tool I use every day.

Wanted to have a laugh @ teh fanbois and clicked the link.

The firefox tab *did* make me laugh: a tiny little bomb; like in mine-sweeper.

Check yourself !

If Apple provided the proper tools for users that wish to customize their desktop interface, then people would not have to resort to 'unsafe' apps like APE. It is amazing that a company who caters so strongly to the graphic arts community would limit the ability of these users to make visual changes to the standard appearance of the desktop.

I use Camouflage to hide all desktop icons (revealed in finder by a single click on the desktop), Candybar to change that stupid smiley face to a laptop icon, and APE to make my dock background transparent. The resulting look is as simple and minimalist as you can get. I really like it this way and am frustrated that Apple can't seem to get that users might like a choice.

We just learned that Andrew Orlowski is of all things an ilemming now this you knock me over with a feather you never know who might be one of "them".APE sounds deeply disturbed as a concept only a complete idiot would install something like that.

"Like we learned in the military ...

never, ever be first."

...but like I learned from "The Lord of the Rings", if you *are* first, yell like a motherf*cker on the way in.

Mac has errors too!!!! What can possibly be happening? Is the world coming to an end? Is Jesus on his way back?

Nope, it's just that now that Apple has started adding more useful functionality to their tools, they are experiencing the same problems as any widely distributed OS.

"Clearly Apple is reduced to copying Microsoft."

@Abdul Omar

Clearly sir, you have not been around the IT industry long enough to see and understand exactly how Bill and Steve's (Jobs) excellent idea recycling adventure works, and Microsofts coveted 5 year idea recycling program...

Steve: hey Bill, Check this new idea/program/gadget we're developing!

Bill: oh please, thats garbage, nobody would ever buy that trash...

5 years later (you can set a clock to this)...

Bill: oh shit, i think he was on to something... Ballmer! Steve is making way too much money from that, recycle his idea, rip off his style, then poison the market so we can make our cut from his idea!

Now, @Ron Eve @tardigrade

Abdul Omar was on to something, just smoked a little too much crack first...

I've been running Vista since the closed beta, the OS has had its problems in its infancy, however, i've said this before and i'll say it right here, right now...

I call any and everyone to the mat, show me proof of concept why Vista is such trash, and dont point me to articles written by people who just like to hear themselves bitch, list out, in bullet points, issues that you have personally had / discovered with Vista. hardware issues, anything...

or are you too full of hot and taking swipes at someone just to make yourself look and feel cool?

bring it!

... then I wouldn't fully blame Apple on this one. I do remember some similar shoddy extensions crapping out after some System 7 updates back in '94 me thinks. Apps that do low-level kernel interaction should check versions before running, though the OS should do them too ;)

That said, I think the worst OS bug I've *ever* seen (bar Vista) might be the "disk 1" we got in some 7.5.x update. For those who don't know:

Back then, floppy disk installations were still common, and with multi-disk installs you usually inserted disk 1, run the installer, and for disks 2 and beyond you would insert disk 2, or insert disk 1, then insert disk X and go on. Except on this particular update, something weird happened, and now after disk 2 you would enter the "endless cycle of doom" where you insert disk 2, OS reads a sector, pukes disk 2, ask disk 1, read sector, puke it, ask disk 2 ... you get the idea.

After 200 cycles of "disk 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,3,1,3,1,3" my dad just went "aaah fuck it!" and returned to the older OS version. Now that was bad, real bad. Of course, Apple issued a fix pretty quick, but these were the days before broadband Internet, or even used for such updates: that fix would be sent by mail, which in our case took weeks.

Still, much quicker than the major fixing overhaul required by Vista...

Oh and by the way, I hate what Jobs has done to my formerly beloved Apple, but at least they are still kicking MS ass.

It started with Intel chips. Now that Apple is delivering a true BSOD experience we can be sure it will soon be a $300 bn company with absolute monopolistic domination over the world of IT. Expect European antitrust suits against Apple within the next decade, and Steve Jobs resigning to become a Gatesque world-wide philanthropist curing malaria, TB or whatever. Deja vu - all over again!

Why do Apple fans always excuse the cock-ups they make? 'It isn't their fault it's a 3rd party app.'

From the sound of it, it is a very common app but they couldn't be bothered testing with it because it wasn't created by Apple.

While MS software does have its problems, the majority of them are caused by 3rd party apps that tweak the system or interact with it in a way MS didn't expect. Given the amount of software available for Windows, it would be impossible for them to test everything.

Given the amount of software available for Macs, it shouldn't be too hard to test against the common apps that people choose to install.

The lesson here seems to be the same one as with all Apple stuff - Macs, Ipods, Iphone 'Everything works great as long as you don't dare move away from the church and use somebody else's stuff'

As has been said before, let's see Apple produce an OS compatible with as much hardware and software as MS and see if they can get it run half as stable as MS manage. They won't try it though because they know how difficult it is. The mighty Steve is more than happy to look down on his cult and declare in a large booming voice 'THOUGH SHALT NOT USE ANY HARDWARE THAT WE DO NOT DICTATE AND IF YOU DARE INSTALL NON-APPLE SOFTWARE THY MAC WILL BE UNSTABLE, YOUR IPOD WILL LOSE MUSIC AND THY IPHONE SHALL BE BRICKED'

Wearing flame retardant jacket in preparation

I have iTunes installed on Vista. The piece of crap must have received 8 updates since Vista was released but it still paints black when it starts, still suffers from choppy video, still has attrocious scrolling speeds and still crashes without warning.

I'd add that in the days of MacOS Classic, Apple used to insist all apps had a common look and feel, yet apparently this advice doesn't apply any more, especially for Apple's Windows apps. No instead, they force some kind of Aqua / chrome crap on users and to hell with consistency.

I remember a day when Apple used to stand for consistent and easy GUIs. These days it seems like they really don't care any more. Just push out any old crap, preferably reskinning or changing it in some non-standard way.

My initial reaction to the headline "Blue screen of death mars Leopard..." was, naturally, smugness. About time those condescending Mac fanboys got a taste of the BSOD.

In fact, the mad ranting of various fanboy factions is one of El Reg's most entertaining facets.

Actually, of course, there are some problems that apply equally to Linux, Mac and Windows.

Two very sensible suggestions (above) are worth repeating:

1) Wait! Any newly-released OS will have bugs that haven't been picked up in betas and release candidates. It is always better to wait til bugs have surfaced and been fixed (in Windows that usually means a longish wait til the first full Service Pack; in Mac and Linux, there's less of a delay as a rule.)

2) Go clean. Never try to "upgrade" an installed OS. Always go for a clean install: back up all your data to removable media, zap the disk, re-partition and/or reformat if necessary, install the new OS, re-install any required apps, then re-load your user data. (This is also, obviously, the most effective way to rid a machine of malware.)

how is third party incompatibility together with user stupidity (not to check that compatibility) is Apple's fault?.. Are we going to say it's car manufacturers' fault then drivers put diesel instead of petrol and vv?..

"You bought a machine named after an overcoat from a company namd after a fruit so what can you expect."

You fool ... the "Mac" is named after a variety of Apple.

(FACTS != straight) == Windozer

True.

Microsoft spends huge amounts of time and money testing compatibility with all sorts of applications and ensuring upgrades work. Mostly it works well enough not to affect the operation of the operating system itself (although some drivers and apps may not work). Despite what certain people say, Microsoft also spend a lot of time preserving certain bugs so that poorly written major third party applications (and probably some of Microsoft's own..) still work.

If there are widely used apps for OS X that Apple is aware of, but does not approve of, it is still their job to work round/disable that app so that upgrades complete successfully.

Having said that, personally I never trust upgrades, and only perform them as a last resort.

If Vista has issues due to third party apps then it's 'Bad MS!', everything should just work! When it's Apple third party app developers are supposed to test their own software against the new releases and inform all users of problems. Nothing to do with Apple who released the new OS.

Hmmm, bit of hypocrosy there or what?

Incidently have been using Vista since it was released on a laptop with only 1 issue - my Asus remote driver is useless and won't install. Which I blame on Asus not MS. Other than that faster, spanglier and basically 'nicer' than XP was. Would get an apple to join it but for the 1000 euros or so extra you need to get equivilant (sp?) specs.

"(FACTS != straight) == Windozer

True"

So are you saying that Windozer references the same value as the boolean true or the boolean false?

Surely

while ((FACTS !=straight)==true) Windozer

or shorter

while(Facts != straight)

Windozer

Stay clear of all dot-zero releases, no matter who they come from.

@anon suggest a bit more research is required

1/ McIntosh Red a tart flavour cultivar Apple first discovered in 1811 from a single tree in Dundas County Ontario Canada by one John McIntosh !

2/ Mackintosh a rubberized fabric invented by one Charles MacIntosh and sold commercially from 1824 as a waterproof raincoat onwards under the universal abbreviated nickname "Mac(k)"

3/ McIntosh Laboratory founded in 1949 by one Frank McIntosh for notable well designed high end audiophile equipment !

4/ Macintosh 128 originally released in 1984 by Apple Computer Inc. as a follow on to the Lisa debacle powered by the next generation Motorola 68XXX chip and the first public computer on offer to use the Xerox mouse interface rather then direct keyboard entry !

The name was reportedly a derivative of the slackers who could not speak English(Californian butchered American or real English) in US grocery stores misspelling the imported Canadian fruit and also to directly avoid paying the audiophile company from New York royalties for using their registered brand name(remember Apple at one time paid a one time fee to Apple Records PLC for the use of both it's brand name and logo ) !

Sadly the very wet behind the ears Apple fan boys unable or unwilling to pronounce the units correct name misappropriated the raincoat's short name !

The old story of whom pirated what and when which is essential that which was Apple Computer Inc. does so well for the least cost !

As for market penetration with sales of a computers numbering less then ten million new units in world wide sales of some 500 million units who really cares any way ?

Its just ..

(FACTS != straight) == Windozer

which always equates to boolean TRUE.

The extra line "True." is a personal comment ... I guess I should have put in one of the following at the beginning:

% // # (* ; REM * ' or /*

I hit this one. APE, as I recall, modifies the dynamic library loader somehow to allow code to be injected into applications. Older versions of APE didn't check for the version of the operating system, and users with those versions (including me) found that the application that brings up the login window wouldn't load. You were left looking at a plain blue screen.

Newer versions of APE do check for 10.5 and won't load if that's the case, which is why it works for some users. However this doesn't help you much if you didn't even realise it was installed. According to a slashdot thread there are some commercial apps out there that use this rather insidious little app to modify the OS, so it's not always the users fault it's there and many may not even realise it is.

Bottom line, if you're going to write code that modifies the dynamic library loader you damn well make it bulletproof - this is 100% Unsanity's fault, although Apple haven't been too forthcoming either. When I spoke to Apple Australia midday saturday and told the guy my mac was hanging on reboot, he said "so, do you have the blue screen and nothing else". It was the first call he'd taken but some of his colleagues had hit it, yet still nothing from Apple officially. The guy told me to archive and install, and didn't mention APE once.

Leopard also has an issue (still not fixed even with the update) with failing to open some FileVault drives which has hit my mate rather badly, and the missing Java 1.6 is a disaster. The 1.6beta that was running flawlessly under 10.4 is dumping core, and I'm midway through a pile of work using the javax.script package so this has really screwed me over. Looks like I'll be firing up Parallels.

"From the sound of it, it is a very common app but they couldn't be bothered testing with it because it wasn't created by Apple."

This app hooks into many low level critical system processes. Apple themselves strongly recommend not installing it. Leopard had many many changes to these low level critical processes. Why should they have to work around some third party shareware developer? It's like (if we must use the expected car analogies) the manufacturer being responsible if the wiring layout changes between models and someone rewiring it breaks something.

"I call any and everyone to the mat, show me proof of concept why Vista is such trash, and dont point me to articles written by people who just like to hear themselves bitch, list out, in bullet points, issues that you have personally had / discovered with Vista. hardware issues, anything...

or are you too full of hot and taking swipes at someone just to make yourself look and feel cool?

bring it!"

....bring it? Are we in a nerd cheerleading movie now? Where should I begin... how about what I do. I'm a LAN admin/help desk/answer your retarded windows vista questions 9 hours a day, who works for the US Government. I'm a 14 year mac user, but I do own a wintel box, and my wife owns a laptop with vista. So you want proof of concept... maybe some... personal experiences. Well, I step to the mat to your challenge. Oh, and before you start with the mac fanboy shit. Yeah I'm a mac fan, big fan honestly, but I still respect Windows XP. It has its goods and bads, no different from OS X. Vista on the other hand, has its bads.

Here's your much begged for list:

My wife bought a laptop about 3-4 months ago, maybe a little longer. Since then, she has begged me to buy a macbook so that she can get rid of it and use the macbook. For the last 2 weeks I've heard the laptop hit the living room couch with a thud that rivals a gunshot. Why you ask? Well let me begin...

1. She didn't take the advice of the "salesman" and buy the 1GB of RAM. Yes, true, her fault as much as Micro$ofts. But, can you tell me why, EVEN, after going back and ordering a 1GB stick of RAM that our Mac Mini G4 1.5GHz does the following:

Boots up faster.

Loads photoshop faster.

Loads itunes faster.

Can run more then 3 programs at once. (And I'm being serious! It is

nothing short of hell when you try to run IE7 with Windows mail and

itunes running).

The list could go on and if you wish it you'll receive. I'll let her type

it all if that tickles your fancy.

Why does it seem like the mac mini is out running the vista laptop? Oh, and by the way, before you even consider typing it. I didn't know about the above, until my wife pointed out after testing it out one day when I was at work.

2. Now here's a really annoying problem. For some reason... maybe my iBook spoiled her... upon opening the laptop it takes anywhere from 15-20 seconds for the screen to go from black to having either the login screen or the desktop. If this weren't bad enough, when it does finally turn on it does 3 black screen flashes that last about 3 seconds a piece. After you login, BOOM, 3 more black screen flashes. Updated Drivers? Hardware? What could it be? Let's see, 2 commanders where I work came in last week and asked if we could make it not do that anymore. One had a laptop, one had a desktop. My mother (who just switched back to a mac, because of Vista) had the exact same problem with her new laptop. And one of my closest friends has the exact same problem (keep in mind that he's also in the IT field). So may I ask? Hardware???? All are different computers. Drivers? All updated drivers (one even installed a new graphics card). Vista? You're call, not mine. I'm sure you'll mark me as a fanboy with exaggerated opinions anyways.

3. If I have to see one more pop up windows I'm going to hang myself. Are you sure? Are you really sure? IE7 is about to go to the following web page, for some reason or another you need to click here so that you can go? Really wanna go? You can't access this application because your not an admin and don't have access privileges. Hold shift + right click, login as admin. You do not have access because you are not an admin. Well... I kinda own the computer and I have admin rights. Should make me an admin right? Apparently not. File can not be run: application missing XXXXXASDFA12412XXXX. What did you do to make it stop working? I locked the computer and went out for a smoke. Came back and it wouldn't work. Well log me in so that we can run it again and I can get the exact error. Huh?? It's working now??? How??? I dunno. 30 minutes later, rinse and repeat. I'll be the first to say that I enjoy security, whether or not it's on a mac or a pc. But, can you classify it as security when you can't do anything at all? Or should we put that one under the non-productivity category?

4. Wireless internet, what an amazing thing!!! Absolutely perfect for laptops!!! Upon opening the laptop lid, after the usual 6 blinks (3 to start with, and 3 after login), clicking on internet explorer, firefox, or safari is something that I wouldn't recommend. Why? Because your internet connection hasn't been established yet. 1 minute rolls by, (Insert computer name) is connected to the following network: local access. 2 minutes roll by, (insert computer name) is connected to the following network: internet & local access. 3 minutes roll by, HURRAYYYY we're on the internet!!!! Who would've thought it could be so easy!!! Oh wait... open lid to iBook (insert your mac laptop) click on (insert browser of choice) and TA DAH the internet!!! Timing = 10-15 seconds max. Now I suppose this is just the wireless card, or the hardware? Honestly, that's what I thought. Apparently not. I've touched multiple vista laptops that do the same thing. Only difference, is the name that is on the computer. Which means that, they are different, yet have something in common. Vista.

5. Why does the recycle bin keep disappearing? Is it afraid of Vista also? Now I understand that it's just a right click away, but should I really have to deal with this every time I or my wife log in? Had an officer at work the other day with the same problem. I'm sure there's an answer, but I just flat out refuse to look that one up.

6. Now here is what has pissed me off the most. Due to the fact that my wife calls me into the living room every time something doesn't go right or work, I decided on Remote Desktop. Yeah, I know I'm lazy! But, for what it's worth, she unfortunately has to call me in there a lot! So simple fix let's use remote desktop. What? I don't have the right version of windows vista? Not true. At first this is what I was seeing everywhere, but it's not right. You still can, at least I think, I've still yet to do it. Why? Won't let me connect from the macmini, the ibook, or the XP box. Put all the computers outside of the firewall, tried vnc, apple remote desktop, chicken of the vnc, blah blah blah. Still no luck. I gave up and called tech support, which is like getting kicked in the nuts for me. Tech support guy walks me through it..... still no remote desktop. Walks me through it again... still no remote desktop. Tells me "Oh!!! You're version of Vista doesn't support remote desktop", I laugh, and hang up the phone. So I said "F" it, and chalked it up as a waste of many hours of my life.

7. Now, I guess this could have went in at #6 also, but it seemed to be getting long. File sharing! Considering that my wife and I just started a web design business file sharing was a no brainer. So i thought. Mac can't connect to the PC, PC can't connect to the Mac. Fix? Go into WIndows Vista's registry and change a 1 to a 0, or a 0 to a 1. Can't remember. After that it let the mac connect to the windows machine. But not Vice Versa, or so I thought. Apparently, I was wrong, and just needed to understand that I would connect to the Mac machine.... when it felt like it. Some days it connects w/out a hitch. Other days we just laugh, and she burns me a cd, which is then followed by her saying.... Should've got a mac, will you please install XP for me.

P.S. - This may have gotten better with Leopard, in fact I may check that tonight. Maybe apple fixed microsofts problem. <--- Sure that's gonna piss some people off.

With all of that said, I'm gonna stop there... for now. I may fell froggy and come back with some more. Also, before you say well number blah blah is trivial please bite your tongue. I use computers to, you ready?, make my life easier. I don't care that you can build a computer with this much ram and this big a hard drive and it'll be cheaper then a mac, or cheaper then a store bought computer. I have a life, I'm sorry. I enjoy my wife, friends, family, and my guitar. I also enjoy Crown Royal every once in awhile! From experience alcohol and computers just don't seem to mix that well. Last but not least if I wanna play games I'll play them while I'm laying in bed with my PS3 on the 60 inch. No, I don't care if you can hook it up to a projector, or that the "graphics are better", or that you have WoW. Congratulations! I hope that is treating you spectacular, but oddly enough if you would do a sample of who uses computers, I'm willing to bet that most of them are non-gamers. So please, for the sake of sanity, leave games out of this. And finally, just to trump your "....bring it on"..........

You just got served!

Have a nice day, and remember, when your reading this all you have to do is click ok 5 times and Vista will allow it!

That's it! The Mac is not ready for the desktop! Command line, gee... :-)

"and multiple desktops (i forget what they are called!)"

Depends on the distro, I guess... On mine I think it's been called virtual desktops for, uh, something like four or five years... :-)

"These days it seems like they really don't care any more. Just push out any old crap, preferably reskinning or changing it in some non-standard way."

Well, if it worked so marvelously for the other guys further up North, why not give it a try?

1: You may be right - hard to tell - no comparison here - tho PS has always really been better on a mac...

2: Try this from http://www.winvistaclub.com/t22.html

If you find that your screen resolution keeps changing, on every re-start or re-boot of your computer, here are a few suggestions you can try :

1) Ensure that your Drivers are up-to-date.

2) Disable the screen saver and see if it helps.

3) Else, 'Run' msconfig. Then, on the Boot Tab, ensure that the BaseVideo option is un-checked. Re-start.

4) Try changing the Power Settings, to allow for Sleep Mode, when sharing media.

Then from an administrative command prompt, 'Run'

powercfg -h on

3, turn off UAC (see http://www.petri.co.il/disable_uac_in_windows_vista.htm if you've never done it before)

4: Not seen that behaviour before - are your wireless drivers up to date - my vista laptop connects as soon as logged in. Areyou changing access points between starts?

5: Recycle bin is more convenient than the "Delete" key?? never use it... I spent all my time trying to hack it away in XP! :)

6: "Home" versions don't support RDP 'in' - there are hacks out there though ... google "Termsrv.dll "

7: Again .. not seen too many reall problems - only ones I've seen all ended up with someone forgetting to allow/modify/turn off windows firewall - maybe your issues lie here...

Good Luck!!!!!

Steve

I know SteveNZ has answered your questions but I would like to help and add to his post.

1. Try upgrading to these patches: KB938979 and KB938194. Both are available through Microsoft’s download site or Windows Update. They’ve been around for a while and plenty of people have said they have experienced much better performance afterwards.

Still there are a lot of things that can be happening. I have 2 GB in my system and I can run Photoshop, surf the web, listen to iTunes (which doesn’t behave properly in Vista and is more Apple’s fault than Microsoft’s), and work on a Word document as well.

I knew one person who had problems with running Vista and it was all the extra crap installed from the manufacturer. After cleaning up his system, it performed rather well and the guy was happy with the result.

2. What kind of video card are you using? My laptop and desktop both come out of standby instantly. My wife’s computer had an issue but a BIOS update fixed a problem with power state modes. None of the computers in my house have had issues with blinking screens or waking up for that matter.

3. Not once has IE7 stopped me to go to a website unless it fell in one of two categories: The phising filter has the site on a blacklist or the site has an expired certificate. Reading error messages will tell you that.

If UAC is your issue, like SteveNZ said, you can turn it off. I like to keep it on (well, I do turn off the secure desktop part) because it keeps me from having one of those “Oh S***” moments. Other operating systems require credentials to elevate privileges, including OS X. I mean, once I get a system to the way I like it, I hardly every see it.

4. XP has given me issues when there are multiple APs in an area or a poorly implemented as will Vista. However, my Vista based laptop connects to wireless networks with ease and have never had a problem. As a matter of fact, it will do one thing that XP had’t done for me in the past: Log onto a computer with a domain account for the first time. XP never did because the wireless connection was never made. My Vista laptop did it after I joined it to a domain I run at home because it connected wirelessly before logging on.

If you are still having problems, check out MS KB article 928152.

5. I never once have seen the recycle bin disappear on any desktop or any version of Windows. I mean, you can purposely delete it or remove it through the Personalization control. Perhaps it was moved to a part of the screen and you didn’t see it? You could fix that by, oh I don’t know, resorting icons. It’s not even necessary to have on your desktop as you can access it from any Explorer window.

6. For someone who claims to do IT work, you didn’t know that home versions don’t include Remote Desktop? It was the same deal with XP. You could have worked around that by using something like VNC or Dameware. Yes, both work in Vista.

7. These changes can be made in the Network and Sharing center (right mouse click Network and click Properties). You don’t have to tweak the registry or anything. Sharing files in Vista isn’t very hard.

The idea I get is that you’re not very good at troubleshooting problems for someone that does it for a living. Then again, as someone who’s also done tech support in the US Army, I've learned there are plenty of people who work IT for the government and aren’t very good at what they do either.

I’ve been in IT for 10 years and while I’ve had an occasional issue with Vista, I knew how to fix it. I didn’t jump on 50 message boards claiming that it was a failure or ranted like a spaz. You claim that you’re not a fanboy but you really come off as one.

To be honest, most of the people doing the bitching are a bunch of “wannabe” techies who give us real IT professionals and enthusiasts a bad name. Vista isn’t perfect but it’s not a steaming pile that a lot of whiners claim it to be.

3rd party app: Dell.

@Anonymous Coward 1

"(FACTS != straight) == Windozer"

If FACTS != straight you'll get a boolean true out of the first evaluation, otherwise a boolean false, which means that Windozer must == true.

@Anonymous Coward 2

You shouldn't use loops and ifs without braces, see Scott Meyers.

I am still waiting to see all these problems that people keep mentioning. I have been running Vista business x64 for over 6months evaluating it to see if it is worth migrating from XP. As of yet I can't say it has any distinct advantage for us to do so, but I am more than happy with it's performance on my machine with a measly 1Gb memory. I have had no stability issues, all my hardware is recognized, no slowdown even when running multiple programs and this is on a custom built box, not an OEM one that would have had any issues dealt with by the manufacturer. So far it has never crashed once. The only annoyance is that they still not brought out a completely working adminpak so I can manage network settings from my PC, but it's easy enough to rdp to the server and that doesn't count as a problem with the OS.

"To be honest, most of the people doing the bitching are a bunch of “wannabe” techies who give us real IT professionals and enthusiasts a bad name. Vista isn’t perfect but it’s not a steaming pile that a lot of whiners claim it to be."

I couldn't agree more. I like Macs, but Vista's OK too. Who the hell cares anyway? If there are people out there who like running Lotus 1-2-3 on DOS, good luck to them, it isn't hurting me.

I can't see what the big deal is.

1. No idea what the hell your talking about. My 4 year old Athlon 1.8Ghz with 512Mb RAM runs fine with IE7, Outlook 2007 and a media converter application running. Was Vista pre-installed? If so it's almost certiantly got a crap load of apps also installed such as AV/Firewall/AS/IDS, Messenger apps, 3rd party network apps, updater apps etc. These all take up memory and to be honest if I get a box from anywhere now I wipe and reinstall. I don't want your hog of an AV or Google Desktop installed thanks. I suggest checking for these apps as Vista seems to run better than XP did on my old hardware.

2. This is two different issues. Speed will be down to the number of applications set to load on that users (or all users) desktop session. Again, I would see what applications are pre-installed and hook into the system on load.

Regarding the black screen flashes - this is almost certiantly a problem with the graphics drivers rather than hardware. Check for the latest drivers. I suggest Windows Update first but if not then direct to the hardware manufacturers website. P.S. If it's nVidia then FYI - they suck for Vista drivers.

3. I agree with you on this on - UAC is an annoyance. I have it disabled on my work machine. However I leave it on for my home PC. At work I'm the Network Admin and as such run various tools and command prompts than need admin rights. However at home there are very few occasions where I need to run as an administrator, and to be fair to MS there's not much within Windows itself that requires admin rights. The majority of the time is poorly written applications that use direct paths rather than environmental variables that cause UAC prompts. That and installing apps including ActiveX (which you can disable too by installing the first option from the Windows Components windows). Generally UAC is a good thing as most people with properly written apps will hardly see it - just us hacks that need admin rights more than most and use legacy or slightly dodgey apps that will get annoyed. If you REALLY want to MS provide the option to turn UAC off - but it's hardly good practice for any OS to allow your users to run with root permissions is it?

4. I'm with SteveNZ above - never seen that before. (We use wireless and about 80 Vista laptops at the moment - and knowing the commerical team they'd be screaming at me by now!)

5. Huh? Um, it's there on the desktop...?! Not sure what the problem is here, cause I can assure that a standard Vista install just has the recycle bin on the desktop as normal...

6. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/editions/choose.mspx

Try reading. You can still do remote support - just not propper RDP in. Suggest editing your firewall (which is actually done automatically if your wife sends a remote assistance request to you).

7. Try the propper Mac services for Windows rather than some hack from years ago. Got a couple of old Mac's at work we use for testing and I Vista, XP and Win2k3 Server all connect fine and vice-versa.

did nobody else see this cunningly designed windows server icon?

http://www.qdh.org.uk/wordpress/?p=185

All in all leopard has gone pretty smoothly for all the machines I've upgraded, its a shame people are having troubles but please don't play this as a major incident. MS screwed up more users than this with vista, and with larger problems in general, and don't get me started on gutsy gibbon, compositing by default? Yeah right only for new installs and with a piss poor default configuration.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306857

As the fanbois keep telling us, why do they need something called "Application Enhancer" ?

When i was installing my copy it did come up with, what i can only describe as designer blue background, which might have been the BSOD. it was present for about 15-20 seconds. this could have been when it was checking the computers drivers. After that the screen changed to show the progress of the installation and then rebooted and it was fine.

So my conclusion is while in the BSOD the installation comes across a driver or drivers it does not understand it falls over. Its strange that if that the case why didn't it get picked up and fixed.

I did find the installation instruction a little thin in the book. i know apple is promoting a minimalist approach to how much information they should provide, but this is a major upgrade we are talking here.

Regards

Bob

Is why so many people are willing to throw their money away on a service pack. Yes it adds a few bells and whistles, looks a bit shinier but it still does not qualify as a whole new OS. £85 for a service pack, - and they say MS is expensive. MS release packs containing just as many tweaks, updates and improvements and at least you get their service packs free for the life of the product.

Must be the Paris Hilton angle - it's shiny, designer, new and costs far more than it should like all of Apples products making it the new must have for IT girls.

I have installed the new OS on two macs so far!

My trusty old G4 867mhz machine (sadly due for hard earned retirement in the new year!) and a current but white 20" iMac!

The G4, my home machine, had all of its documents/music/pictures/movies removed and recorded to DVD and had the 'erase & install' option applied to the install operation.

The iMac, which had only recently been set-up from scratch with two accounts, but had had no software installed - had the 'Upgrade' option applied. (This is a path I never ever take myself - but I was curious!!!)

The net result of both - NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER!

Both machine are running fine, smoothly, slickly and efficiently! I was quite worried that the G4 would stutter - after all it is the absolute minimum requirement for Leopard - but no it is fine! Two long evening work have passed by without ANY incident!

Congratulations to all those engineers at Apple whose 'long evenings & days' over the past months have paid off handsomely for those mere mortals like myself who use their wares daily!

Adobe's CS3 suite also performs flawlessly for me on both machines too!

The more I delve into it and the more in-depth reviews of not-so-apparent features I read about Leopard, the more I am looking forward to upgrading my suite of 20 iMacs at college as soon as I get half a chance!

Best wishes Apple!!

Definition of Fanboys: Persons who feel the urge to promote the interests of a commercial entity for no direct tangible remuneration.

Souds familiar, iLemmings?

You're obviously not a very good sysadmin, mate. A chimp with a couple of hours' training could tune Vista.

Turn on Windows Update, turn off indexing and auto-defrag. There's your starter for 10.

And for God's sake, even at rip-off UK prices, laptop memory is £17GBP for 1GB. Go get some.

Get some for your Mac Mini too, although that might cost you more... ;-)

I have so far installed Leopard on 7 systems. 3 clean installs one Archive & install, and 3 upgrades. The three upgrades were on a 1.25 GHz eMac, a White G5 iMac, and a 20" New iMac. The three upgrades were to fairly standard machines with no hacks, but lots of varying types of software installed. All flawlessy installed in an hourish in most cases. The one A&I was a Mac Mini, after installing, then using migration assistant, everything worked fine. The three Clean installs were on a Powerbook G4, a G5 Tower, and a Mac Pro, the Powerbook took under an hour, the G5 about 30 minutes, and the Mac Pro, this is the first gen Mac Pro mind you, 13 minutes to install Leopard. So far I've had no problems with any of the installs.