How about keeping kids off the roads?

How about teaching people road safety again?

Making roads safer by having railings and proper crossings.

Cars drive along roads, drivers don't deliberately hit people, pedestrians are the ones who often make mistakes.

You die, you're dead, end of problem. You don't die, you get to drive around at 20mph, you go crazy, you start voting with The Sun, all immigrents are banned, taxes are lowered, public spending is increased and you eventually die crazy, on the street, alone, at 60 of neglect.

firstly i see they want to make the roads safer for cyclists.... is this the same cyclists who choose to ignore traffic lights and just do as they please??? or are the police going to crack down on that as well??

then i can do 20mph and still kill someone.. just mount the pathway and mow as many as i like down.. least im sticking to the speed limit eh!

what the government should be doing is spending more money on teaching road safety to kids (like they used to in the 70s when i was a kid) and also put a limit on the size engine new drivers can use (like motorbike rules), seeing as a 17yr old muppet with no expereince can get into any high powered car having no idea how to drive at any speed and kill.

this governent sucks and they wont stop till were all on those crap bendy busses that 1. catch fire or 2. end up killing you by running you over !!

The real problem is not drivers travelling at excessive speed, but with idiots who think the road belongs to pedestrians. If I drive my car along the pavement, then I will get into trouble. Therefore if kids coming home from school walk on the road, they too should get into trouble.

I have to pay due care and attention when driving along, why shouldn't pedestrians have the same level of responsibility.

If you end up on the road, and get hit by a car, van, lorry, vintage steam roller, then that should be your fault, not the drivers. Why are we seen to be the bad guys all the time?

""We are living in a period when central government appears reluctant to regulate unless absolutely necessary."

Ahahahahahaha. Ahahaha. Ha. Ha.

Oh dear God. He appears to be serious.

The problem of driving is not a case of bullying road users to follow the rules as recent history has proven you put speed cameras up people speed between camera's and install widgets to detect cameras.

IMO they should be tougher on drivers who break the law in that more minor offences should result in a driving ban, and people who have to retake a driving test should be given a tougher test than they orginally took.

Currently in the UK your better off killing someone in a car than in any other way, and you stand a good chance of getting off.

So, how many people will the extra pollution from driving at 20mph instead of 30mph kill? How much more road-rage will there be from being forced to go more slowly than appropriate for the road conditions? How much extra money will the government take from us with the increased fuel consumption?

And if I were to be cynical...

News to me. Where does one find these?

'We are living in a period when central government appears reluctant to regulate unless absolutely necessary.'

I'll have a pint / tab / gramme / eighth of what he's on please, because he has at best only a passing acquaintance with the real world so it must be good stuff.

... bring back the man carrying a red flag and be done with it?

Gifford, you’ll be first up against the wall come the revolution!!!

Pass me the tinfoil hat!

So the default urban speed limit becomes 20 MPH. So a straight road wide enough for four lanes but marked as 2, with 20yards of verge on one side and an elevated footpath on the other will be limited at 30mph slower than it's safe on a fine summer's pre-dawn. Instead of 20 mph slower nowadays.

Speed limits are an exercise in compromise. Local authorities don't appear to be equipped to make those compromises.

A 30 mph limit on a residential side street with cars parked both sides is probably too fast. Small children aren't visible past the sight-blocks. People should be taught to drive within their, the environent's and their vehicle's limits and the punishment should reflect the circumstances. With the current revenue-collection mindset, though, one size is being made to fit all, and that's just rubbish.

But what will happen to all those drivers around who insist on doing -20mph of the posted limits?

Tractors will finally be capable of "speeding" offences lol!

Average speed cameras may be fine for straight-line non stop journeys on motorways, but I'm not sure how an urban average speed limit will limit top speeds to anything like 20mph unless taken between relatively close points (like all entrances to a small residential area).

In much of London and similar places, I'd assume the average speed is rather less than 20mph even where traffic is hitting 30-35mph between lights.

Last night I followed a police car. It was very obviously not on an emergency call, as it had no flashing lights and was travelling within the speed limit.

Yet in the space of 200 yards, that police car passed TWO cyclists driving without lights, and ONE that was driving at speed on the pavement which is definitely pedestrian-only in that area.

So long as we have incompetent police officers like this, failing to do the job they are paid for and ARREST these miscreants, we will have people being killed through a combination of their own stupidity and police incompetence.

Abolish some of the excessive police paperwork, increase the fines to a sensible level, build a few more prisons to take care of repeat offenders, make police pay dependent on NOT pretending to miss reckless driving like this and sort out proper cycle lanes not just lines in the road and we will not need unnecessarily low speed limits.

"we should aim to design out road use conflicts in the same way as we can design out crime"

And just how has that "designing out crime" worked for you?

Unfortunately, it's mostly because cyclists have been forced off the road and parents are too scared to let their children walk to school. As a result, people have a reduced quality of life and are using cars instead, which increases pollution.

I think that in the UK more people are killed by pollution from cars than by collisions involving cars.

There's no point in reducing "road deaths" while increasing "pollution deaths" by a greater amount.

I would guess that 20 mph speed limits would help a bit.

"Cars drive along roads, drivers don't deliberately hit people, pedestrians are the ones who often make mistakes."

Yes, it's the peds fault people STILL use mobile phones while driving, eat while driving, smoke while driving, put their effing make up on while driving... then blame the ped with: "oh but he stepped into the road without looking! I wasn't using my mobile, honest... look I own a handsfree kit, it's right under that half eaten piece of pizza sticking out of my makeup bag. Which I dropped and got stuck under the brake pedal.".

Granted there are enough dumb pedestrians who won't always look when crossing the road but still it is the responsibility of the person in control of the vehicle to spot unlikely and sudden hazards in the carriageway and act accordingly. If that means planting your car into a lamppost to avoid killing a dumb pedestrian then so be it - I'm sure the ped (and your conscience) will be glad you're sharp enough to react in time and save a life.

And while we're at it... damn drivers should learn to read road signs. Stick the the speed limit, STOP at the STOP sign, and learn to use f**king indicators!

I feel enlightened all of a sudden. I think i'll celebrate by jaywalking through the city centre during rush hour.

One of the more recent speed reduction adds shows a car in side profile slamming it's brakes on in black and white slo-mo. The voice over says something along the lines of, "At 30mph the car would stop here" *Freezeframe* "At 40 mph it stops here" slo-mo continues and car hits child in road.

However, if you watch the child from the beginning of the ad, you can see him run out into the road without even glancing sideways to see the oncoming traffic. This accident was clearly the fault of the child.

I propose hitting small children with a lightweight metal pole (maybe from a tent). Then, explain that cars are also made out of metal and they live on roads so stay out of the damn road or get hit by a car!

"target of no more than 1,000 UK road deaths annually by 2030". No problem then. The oil's gonna run out in 2012 so there won't be more than a handful of milkfloats around in 2030.

It's bad enough without fewer people dying on the roads. Do away with speed limits everywhere, that's what I say, sort out the pension crisis in a few short months.

"With all that we currently know about urban design, we should aim to design out road use conflicts in the same way as we can design out crime.

When we also remember that road deaths amount to 82 per cent of all accidental deaths for those under 20, there still remains plenty for us to do."

These go with the 'Govt. unwilling to to regulate" quite well.

How & where have we 'designed out crime'? We have already designed out road use conflicts by having cars on a thing called a road, and pedestrians on a thing called a pavement (or sidewalk, if you're a visitor here).

Yes, roads deaths kill more people under 20 than anything else, but that's because hardly anything kills anyone under 20. It's surprising to me that stupidity doesn't weed out a few more, but I guess walking in front of a car ON A ROAD probably qualifies.

20mph? It's pretty easy to hit 20mph on a bike, and you have no speedo. So, are cyclists going to be immune to this law? Oh, that'll be fun...

"When we also remember that road deaths amount to 82 per cent of all accidental deaths for those under 20, there still remains plenty for us to do."

Increasing the number of people under the age of 20 killed by other means would be what he means, at a guess?

I wish people would refrain from quoting statistics unless they understand what they mean...

Oh dear Andy - it must be awful for you to witness the occasional cyclist shooting a red light (cars, vans and lorries never do of course) and pedestrian jay walking (cars, vans and lorries only ever drive where they are supposed to with due care and attention to other road users of course). Would you like some therapy perhaps?

Or perhaps you could wake up and smell the coffee: pedestrians and cyclists are killed and injured in large numbers by motor vehicles on our roads every year, large numbers of motorists are NOT killed or injured by pedestrians or cyclists on our roads every year. These deats and injuries are STATISTICALLY (i.e. not one off Daily Wail hysteria) caused in the large majority of cases by poor driving by motorists.

On a less flameworthy note the use of technical enforcement of low speeds in urban areas by cameras etc. seems less likely to be effective than altering the structure of our urban streets to blur the boundaries between road and pavement as it is in cities like Amsterdam (and has been experimented with in Kensington I believe): this leads to a much more co-operativeand less aggressive culture between road users who have to negotiate their progress and be much more aware of everyone else around them. And no I haven't been smoking anything :p~

He's off his rocker. I have better things to do than drive through a village with 12 people in it doing 20mph at 10:30 at night after being at the office since 6:00 in the morning.

Speed doesn't kill - stupidity on the roads does. If someone speeds then they are more likely to kill than if they were doing their stupid driving slowly. So why penalise everyone when we should just be weeding out the dickheads who can't drive.

1. Driving test must be taken every 10 years, however you can take it again from 8 years onwards to ensure there's enough time to get rid of the cobwebs.

2. When you have your bus pass handed to you, the above changes to every 5 years.

3. If you don't pay road tax you can't use the road. Sorry cyclists, pay up or sod off - I've got 2 litres and a deadline to meet. What do you think will happen when you cut me up at a roundabout.

4. Better management for slower vehicles. E.G. Tractors and possibly lorries can only travel outside of mainstream hours. Thus not allowed between 8:00am and 10am, and again not permitted between 4:30 and 6:30 pm.

5. Less signs, but make the current ones more bloody accurate!!

6. Relax speeding. Motorways should NEVER have speed cameras, and there should be a margin to increase to for other areas outside of school and daytime hours. E.G. at 2 in the morning on a dual carriageway I should be allowed to do 90. Why restrict me? There's no other sod around and I'm confident that I can drive.

7. Harsher penalties for careless driving. GPS, Smoking and using the radio are all crap reasons. I mean if you're on the phone without a handsfree and plough into a stationary lorry.

8. Make things like Pass Plus compulsory as part of the test. If people get given a licence to drive on motorways and at night then they need to include at least the theory in the test.

9. CHEAPER BLOODY FUEL!

Rant over.

A dedicated commuter.

When will all those speed loving idiots realise that driving slower has virtually no impact on how long it take to get anywhere. If you drive 70 miles at 70mph it takes you an hour. Drive those 70 miles at 60mph it takes you 10 minutes longer - big deal.

At 'urban speeds' the difference in time taken to get anywhere by driving 10mph slower is even less noticable, and when you take into account traffic lights and congestion you're probably looking at saving a few measly minutes on the 'average journey'.

At slower speeds you're less likely to kill someone - if those measly extra minutes can be transformed into a few less pointless deaths I'm all for it. Anyone against?

... if I may make so bold. Educating people out of the mindset that 3000 deaths per year is ok, is going to be one of the major challenges of our lifetime.

"British bike lanes and paths, as anyone who's used them much knows, are rubbish. Their layout almost always prioritises the convenience of motorists over that of cyclists; pedestrians and drivers ignore them most of the time"

Whaaaat!!!!

Are we talking about the same group of road users, here? Are we talking about the same Lycra-clad arseholes that view pavements as their right-of-way (particularly when avoiding traffic lights) and pedestrians as people to be ridden down? The same alien-helmeted dickheads who think traffic lights, one-way streets, pedestrian crossings and give-way signs just don't apply to them? The same bunch of peddling halfwits who see no problem with cramming their bikes onto trains and blocking the doors so that nobody can get on or off?

OK, these may be the minority of cyclists, but they are a total pain in the ass to other road users AND pedestrians. Far from being "those who pose the least risk to others and who are themselves most at risk from others", these 'Lycra Louts" are an extreme hazard to pedestrians, other road users AND themselves!!!

Generally speaking, with a given vehicle, you'll pollute less at 20mph than at 30mph, although admittedly it's not quite as simple as that and there are lots of factors that influence emissions. Smaller engines pollute less than bigger ones, and become more practical for vehicles used mainly for urban runs if the speed limit drops to 20. With a 20 limit and tiny engines I'd speculate that there'd be less pedal stomping going on (accelerate, brake, accelerate, brake) which would also significantly cut emissions since less fuel would be burned just to warm up brake discs.

Driving around in urban areas is pretty antisocial and uncivilised anyway in my opinion. What we really need is a decent public transport alternative. Public transport should be high quality, convenient and free to use. Bet that would cut road use. I know that raises the question of who's going to pay for it but the amount of money getting trousered by private operators and their shareholders would be freed up if the public transport infrastructure was renationalised which would surely help to some extent, and raising the tax on petrol and diesel might cover it.

Would be nice to see the carrot instead of the stick sometime - great subsidised public transport instead of just insane road tax hikes for SUVs.

...it's really just a case of natural selection. If people are stupid enough to run out in front of me I’m doing the world a favour by turning them into fender meat and I should therefore receive a discount when my road tax comes up for renewal.

I shall expedite the mater to my MP forthwith!

I heartily agree with the above posters who note the lack of road safety awareness amongst today's yoof.

I live on a major urban road, and about now (1550 as I'm typing this) I can hear car horns and screams as fuckwit children empty out of the various local school and act like twats on the road.

This happens every day.

It's truly miraculous that more of them aren't killed.

w/r/t cyclists, we aren't all like that. I'm a fairly militant cyclist, but I hate the morons who think it's OK to jump lights, ride when pissed, ride in the dark with no lights, etc. Run em over, bastards, they deserve it.

Is this person living in the same UK as the rest of us, central government is passing legislation at a rate we've never seen before, regulating and interfering in private life more than any government in British history!

Amazing how this issue polarises between drivers and not drivers.

As if people who drive never walk around as well.... Maybe it's that people who drive don't run out into the road and expect cars to just avoid them.

It may be a car drivers job to spot hazards, but that doesn't mean you're not due a darwin award if you run out and under my wheels.

Of the road deaths they are targeting, how many are pedestrian road deaths, as opposed to driver road deaths, and how many occur in 30 limits. I'd bet that it's not that high a proportion, and of this limited set, how many have anything at all to do with speed?

Reducing urban 30 limit roads to 20 would IMO reduce road deaths by very very little, whilst causing the average motorists to hate the government which implemented the change and vote them out ASAP.

You missed an important point off you list - and it should be at number 1:

1. Ban anyone from driving who thinks speed does not kill

I suppose you think accidents only happen to others, and that you're a great driver too, hey?

I often have the misfortune of travelling to work by bus. While waiting at a particularly busy junction in Leeds, I get to watch

4 or 5 motor vehicles jumping the red light at EVERY change even though they should stop for the amber light when in slow-moving, nose-to-tail traffic. Traffic making prohibited left turns through a pedestrian crossing showing the green man. Cyclists on the narrow pavement showing no regard for pedestrians. Pedestrians throwing themselves in front of moving vehicles, to cross the road by the shortest route, instead of using the crossings.

And to make it worse, I'm a hypocrite because I do some of these things too!

You wait, it wont be long before you have a dual credit card slot on your dashboard.

One for your credit card and t'other for your license. GPS speed tracking with "auto billing" for your speeding offence (0.1 mph for 1 second over the limit - It's digital.. your guilty or you aint !!).

Naturally GPS speed limiters wont be introduced as that would circumvent any possibility of revenue raising.

Y'know... I'm a Night Trunk trucker (Liverpool tonight) but I've got just 4 years left on my mortgage.... I guess I'm wishing my life away coz I can't wait to come off the road.

I've started Pushbiking to work as well but Peterborough is blessed with good cycleways... No way your'll catch me cycling on the road... To many demon Truckers/car drivers around !!

Paul

Peterborough

If you cycle on Britain's roads, you're putting yourself at great risk. It doesn't matter if you're a perfect road user, you're still incredibly likely to get killed by a driver.

The problem is partly the cycle lanes (or lack of) and partly the attitude of drivers. They seem to take leave of their senses when they see a cyclist. There are numerous idiots who like to crow about how they've seen cyclists nipping through traffic lights or doing other stupid things. They and other drivers who they've influenced then take this excuse as reason enough to pass a death sentence on all cyclists.

I stopped cycling because people kept trying to kill me. I didn't break any rules of the road - in fact I followed the highway code to the letter - but every day I'd be in mortal danger several times due to either bad or aggressively dangerous driving.

If you're one of those people who likes to engender bad feeling towards cyclists through 'but they do bad things!' comments, please stop. You might think you're just having a moan, but your actions have consequences.

Why not force drivers to concentrate on the road more?

If they ban manual gearboxes then drivers will only need to use half as many limbs, and worry about half as many things (speed/gear/pedal/etc).

Taking this one stage further, why not put a transducer that continuously measures the weight of the driver so the car can automatically cut its engine, lock the doors, and call the Police to arrest the driver for filling his face whilst in motion?

I admit that monitoring the drivers breath for carbon monoxide (a sure sign of intent to murder by passive smoking) might present problems, given the relatively high level of that gas in cars with the ventilation switched off, but why not capitalise on this and require all drivers to insert a cannula before driving so their blood can be monitored constantly for a variety of behaviours that society finds threatening.

I wonder if, in fact, they would be better remembering the thoughts of Lord Baden-Powell, who felt that all cars should have a spike sticking out of the steering wheel boss ending one inch from the drivers chest, and with the other end attached to the front bumper...

As long as they all go past these cams at 25mph in their masses to as to make sifting them from the car drivers too expensive to make the cams practical.

And as long as they finally realise they're a slow moving obstruction on the road and ride within 12" of the kerb instead of in the middle of the road optionally two abreast.

Have you ever noticed how the more 'ecclectically' (sportif?) cyclists dress the more they think they can ride in the middle of the road? I don't care if your bike costs £2k and your tyres are £50+ a pop. Get in the gutter if you want to live, pay for a road sweeper vehicle to clean the kerbside before your 'event'. See those double yellow lines? That's the cycle lane.

And yes that is how I used to cycle as I would expect to die if I rode in the middle of the road, like nobs seem to these days, regardless of how gaily coloured I dressed.

Hmm maybe I'll never approve of cyclists on the road after all...

To state the obvious, it's just another way to collect revenue and 'kick' the motorist.

30mph yesterday, 20mph today, 10mph tomorrow, 2mph by the time they've finished messing everyone about.

Difficult to argue that each of those steps are clearly the right thing to do, as if it saves just one life it must be right. (add your own favourite guilt ridden argument here)

The reason that the pedestrian still has total right of way - note that please, all the twats who are going on about sprogs walking in the road - on any road type short of a dual carriageway is really simple: You're driving an armoured, ton-weight tank, and they're not. Grow up and look to your own responsibilities. Jaywalking is an American law. We don't have it.

"A policeman advised me to curb my speed. I did as they suggested but now I'm running over pedestrians all the time."

Quote: If you drive 70 miles at 70mph it takes you an hour. Drive those 70 miles at 60mph it takes you 10 minutes longer - big deal.

Yeah, but if you drive 700 miles at 70mph, and then at 60mph it takes you 70 minutes longer. I spend long enough in the car to want to spend another 70 minutes there, rather than with my family. This also does not take into account the additional stops required, as the government recommend breaks after every two hours!!!!!

Perhaps when you know how to drive and do significant amounts of it, you will understand that all this red tape is designed to get on peoples tits and not save lives!!!!

Energy transfer and momentum transfer kill.

If you never hit anyone, nobody dies.

"Speed kills" is a moronic, knee-jerk oversimplification of the issue designed to appeal to the emotions of those who don't have a critical faculty.

*Of course* doing 40 down a (currently 30 limit) suburban street at school chucking out time with cars either side is stupid and increases the likelihood of a child being killed. Doing 30 probably isn't that bright, either.

But doing 40 down that same street at 03h00 isn't going to kill anyone because there isn't anyone there, most of the time and when there is they're adults who can see the oncoming headlights, rather than juveniles who we don't expect to be 100% responsible all the time (I hope).

Similarly 100mph plus is probably only going to kill the driver and passengers of a vehicle on a motorway in the wee small hours. Given the margin for driver error, that sort of speed should probably require you to have passed an additonal test, but motorways should need an extra test to drive on anyway.

Quote "1. Ban anyone from driving who thinks speed does not kill"

Speed in general does not kill, inappropriate speed kills. If speed on it's own kills then all trains would kill, as they travel (or should) at over 100MPH, every plane kills, travelling at 300+mph. Motorways are the safest roads in Britain, and guess what, they have the highest speed limit in britain. Speed does not kill. Doing 50 past a school at 15:30 will kill, doing 150 on the motorway at 18:00 will kill, travelling at 50 in the ice and fog where you cannot see 5 yards in front of you will kill.

Yet another of these blinded by the Government statistics type - get a life!!!

Jesus...Anon just loves to come out with silly things, eh?

I was riding in a bus back from Gloucester the other day. There I was sitting quite happily at the front of the large and quite speedy double decker, peering down through the window. I saw a kid cycling on the road. He looked over his shoulder I'd assume to take a peek at where the bus was. At this point it was pretty close. What happens next completely baffles me. The kid just turned right into the middle of the road! The driver managed to slam his breaks on fast enough to not hit him, but come on...Can you seriously say that it's the bus drivers fault that this happened?

Pedestrians and Cyclists generally act more stupidly on the roads at young ages than drivers do. Granted, there are boy racers and all that but regardless of their speed if a child walks flat out into the middle of the road when the car/bus/van/what ever is clearly visible, it IS NOT the drivers fault...

Kids need to learn some road safety me thinks.

Lower the speed limits - but by 1mph. Doing thirty-something in a thirty limit doesn't feel particularly evil. But drop the limit to 29mph and there's a little bit more of a psychological barrier.

Just my 1.99p worth.

"If you don't pay road tax you can't use the road."

I stopped reading there as you clearly don't have a clue. many car users do not pay road tax, ditto other vehicle types...

...for example, check the "not applicable" bands here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

More plans to enforce speed restrictions, which hides the problem of drivers not driving within their capabilities. Instead of beating us to death with bloody speed cameras, how about:

o changes to the DSA test to make it staggered, including night driving, motorway driving and adverse weather driving, and classes on driving theory including basic maintenance, braking forces, skids, etc, before even getting into a driving seat.

o incentives for drivers to continue their improvement by offering proper insurance discounts for drivers who pass, and maintain, recognised advanced driving courses such as RoADAR

o removal of many hard speed limits and introducing advisory limits in their place - this will help stop speedo watching, and allow drivers to use their judgement to gauge the situation. Sometimes it is not safe to do 30 in a 30 zone - just saying speed kills is bollocks, it's speed which is inappropriate for the conditions which can lead to accidents

o once and for all, ripping out the god-awful public transport systems we have and doing it right from the very start. Yes it will be painful, but this tinkering and farting around with it never sees to get anywhere. If there was reliable, integrated, well-priced public transport I would much prefer to use it than drive.

o doing away with cycle lanes except where they actually work well (some of them are bloody ridiculous), and introducing a cycling test, license and insurance to use the public roads. Also introduce decent public cycle parking in town centers, etc.

o proper investment in the state of the roads, including potholes and signage placement / clarity. Some roads and signs are a disgrace.

o introduction of a central body to oversee digging up any public highway in the country, in order to co-ordinate work by separate contractors. No more digging up motorways by one utility, only for it to be dug up again three months later by another.

Flying pigs, anyone?

There have been a few comments about public transport being better used to reduce the number of deaths on the road. But its all the governments fault that the public transport systems are such a shambles.

The amount of fuel duty/road tax/VAT on fuel that we pay to the government has increased, yet the amount that the Government invests in public transport (especially outside of the metropolis called London) has been reduced year upon year. Can I point you to a slide that the BBC produced back in 2005, especially slide 3.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/business_petrol_pricing/html/1.stm

The Government is now leaving it up to the local councils to decide where and when tolls on the roads should be introduced and I am 100% certain that, even though the councils say that the money raised will go back in to public transport, the councils will waste the money on hiring 20 more people to push paper work around the council offices and hire another 20 staff to produce statistics showing that things are improving.

I think I have just become one of those grumpy old men.

The police came to our primary school at least once every year. They would lay out temporary kerbs to form a road down the middle of the playground (remember them?), with assorted accessories like a pedestrian crossing. We watched from a relatively safe distance either side of the "road". The best part of the road safety demonstration was when one of the policemen, out of uniform, attempted to cross the "road" without looking, while one of his colleagues drove the police car, a large black Wolsey with bells, the length of the playground. So, the car probably reached 30mph at the most and the police knew what they were doing, so there was no danger, but it thrilled/scared most of us enough to remember to look before crossing the road.

1. Ban anyone from driving who thinks speed does not kill

1st thing you learn when you ride a motor cycle is speed is fine, inappropriate speed for the current environment is what kills

Whether its through misreading a road, going too fast for traffic to respond to your presence, or not taking into account that the guy in the 4 wheeled metal thing has no idea how to observe properly and it going to pull out straight in front of you.

Legislation is not the answer here.

A crap driver can kill at any speed, a pedestrian who does not apply road sense can get killed if they make a move that doesn't give someone a chance to respond to a stupid action. A cyclist not obeying the rules of the road cannot reasonably expect drivers and pedestrians to know what they're planning to do.

The fact is it is the collective responsibility of all road users to do their bit, legislation only serves to remove responsibility from road users, its about time we enforce the laws we have and promote good road sense instead of looking more legislation to solve the problem.

A naughty loaded question? I guess you're not exactly qualified to talk about "loaded questions" after shamelessly writing:

"Is it better to be rich, free, and at some risk of getting killed by an idiot crashlanding his nuclear-powered flying car; or poor, downtrodden, spied upon - but sure of living long enough to die luxuriously of cancer or Alzheimer's?"

"At some point, when you insist on ultimate levels of safety, you start to pay more and more for each life saved: perhaps not just in money either."

True, although people who think money is not more important than lives might disagree, no? (and the other things you mentioned are just different words for money, except for the freedom bit, which is mandatory to mention, I suppose, any time people don't like something).

1) Roads are designed to handle a certain traffic capacity. So limit the total number of divers allowed to drive to match the road capacity (obviously with some extra allowance because it's unlikely they'll all want to drive on the same road at the same time. I haven't quite got a solution for regional traffic density variations yet, but I'll think about it and let you know. This solution means that to get a license, a yoof will have to wait until another driver dies (of old age, obviously - not a yoof hurrying things along) or doesn't pass his/her biannual driving test.

2) Speed limits become variable on most roads - so faster than 20mph in school time outside a school is 6 points and a big fine but at night, the same road is 40mph (for example). A 30mph dual carriageway through a partially residential area in the rush hour or during traffic build up becomes 50mph when traffic or time of day allows. You get the picture. Camera revenue could easily help provide such a solution and the technology is certainly up to it.

3) Cars detect the road speed (lots of solutions available for how they do that) and display the current limit on their velocitometers ;o) maybe with an 'overspeed' audible warning tone

As a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist and motorist I agree with most of the rants that one group has against the other except that speed kills: not on it's own it doesn't, it's just one of many a contributing factors in an accident.

Here are my thoughts:

If you want to stop people speeding then it's no good taking their photograph and telling them off two weeks later, by then any damage could well be done. Roads need to be designed to make it pointless to speed, and the most obvious way to do so is to phase traffic lights so that on primary roads, keeping to the speed limit keeps you moving. Drive too fast and you catch the next red. This also has the nice side-effect of reducing the fuel consumption (=pollution) of stop-start motoring.

In residential areas make it clear that speed sensors whose exact location is not obvious will trigger pedestrian crossings; the timing of which will halt speeders for long enough to make it quicker to have kept to the limit. Only use cameras to catch red-light jumps. Then if you speed, your journey will take longer; and you’ll hack off other motorists and cyclists (at least the ones like me) who have to stop at your red light. Thus speeding becomes more anti-social.

Alternatively, if you don’t really care about anything but extracting money, you could always just stick more speed cameras up.

Jaywalking laws would make sense in the UK. It would encourage safer habits among kids for a start.

We need a full, informed debate on public and private travel generally. There's no point punishing commuters as if they had a choice when to travel: they don't.

Try traveling *anywhere* in London south of the Thames and you'll understand why driving is pretty much the only option left for many: the trains are so full that it's considered normal to _raise_ fares during peak times; there is no Underground worth a damn south of the river; most arterial road routes are radial, so traveling across London is insanely difficult, and the South Circular is a pathetic joke compared to its northern, multi-lane "motorway-lite" counterpart. And cycle lanes are worse than useless, appearing and disappearing on a whim (along with bus lanes, road lanes and more).

Drivers have no alternatives. Cyclists have nowhere safe to ride here either.

The only way to "design out" deaths on the roads is to segregate motor cars, cyclists and pedestrians from each other *completely*. This is would ensure zero deaths due to the incompatible interfaces between these three modes of travel.

Take the cars and bikes off and build dedicated infrastructure for them. Yes, that could mean a decent cycleway may well have to be built through your back garden, or an expensive road tunnel has to be built at the taxpayer's (i.e. our) expense under a high street. Deal with it! You don't get to have it both ways.

Too expensive? Then shut up and face the fact that you're going to have _some_ deaths and the only way to reduce them is to segregate as best you can using compromise measures. This is why the Americans have jaywalking laws and the like. If this is the only option the NIMBYs leave us, they'll just have to put up with its results.

>He's off his rocker. I have better things to do than drive through a village with

> 12 people in it doing 20mph at 10:30 at night after being at the office since >6:00 in the morning.

10:30 kids in bed geing woke up by some twat doing 50 past their bedroom window with his stereo pumping. not to mention the lack of visibilty when the car rounds the corner at the ends of the (narrow) lane. (both entering and exiting)

>Speed doesn't kill - stupidity on the roads does.... we should just be weeding

>out the dickheads who can't drive.

Like the ones who drive too fast?

>1. Driving test must be taken every 10 years

The ability to pass a test does not mean you drive correctly, it justs means you *could* drive correctly. Have you met a chav? taxi driver? ALthough i would agree that over the course of 10 years the rules change enough to warrant a retest.

>2. When you have your bus pass handed to you, the above changes to every

>5 years.

So the more cautious (ie better) drivers get penalised? Yes, check older people for decline in eye sight or whatever, but thinking people need to retake their test because they are doing WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED to be doing? Like keeping within the speed limit? actually going round a mini roundabout properly?

>3. If you don't pay road tax you can't use the road.

Heh yeah, price road tax based on the size of the engine. So cyclists = £0 kinda like now... what about horses? does that count as 1 horse power?

>4. Better management for slower vehicles.

During those hours, seeing how everone is stuck in traffic. shouldnt you count cars with that? Even when the tractor driver puls over, it just means your getting to the next traffic jam quicker. 10 mins behind a tractor shouldn't ruin your plans for the day. (half an hour on the other hand...) See also my comments on overtaking.

5. Less signs, but make the current ones more bloody accurate!!

What like a 30 limit and big speed camera sign lit up like a christmas tree, paired up with (father down the road) multiple sets of skid marks before the lines in the road? How many times do people need telling?

6. Relax speeding. Motorways should NEVER have speed cameras...Why restrict me? There's no other sod around and I'm confident that I can drive.

So are the chavs, and more importantly the only other person around might be doing 40 (in a 50-due-to-roadworks) and is around that bend your doing 90 down.

>7. Harsher penalties for careless driving. GPS, Smoking and using the radio are all crap reasons. I mean if you're on the phone without a handsfree and plough into a stationary lorry.

Ok i agree. include overtaking multiple vehicles at once on a normal road (one lane each way), overtaking while on a blind bend etc.

>8. Make things like Pass Plus compulsory as part of the test. If people get given a licence to drive on motorways and at night then they need to include at least the theory in the test.

OK i agree with that one

9. CHEAPER BLOODY FUEL!

Buy a smaller engine. Do you really need 2L? No. You just want it cus its fun and cool and goes broom a lot louder. While i would agree we are taxed up to the hilt, the ones that tend to moan the loudest are the ones the tax is supposed to target.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Horses. I don't drive in the fields what are they doing on the road?

And the same goes for Peds. I don't drive on the pavement. What are they doing on the road? My favourites are the coloured gentlemen wearing a black coat and black woolie hat on a rainy evening in London. They're they stand in the middle of the road looking the wrong way while I'm trying to make progress on a motorcycle while being blinded by the oncoming traffic with their badly adjusted headlights.

Or to put it another way, I hate every road user using a different form of transport to me. When I'm on a M/C it's peds, cyclists, cars and buses. When I'm driving subtract cars and add M/C. When I'm cycling, add M/C. When I'm walking they're all out to get innocent old pedestrian me.

It's not speed that kills, it's stupidity. But speed does tend to amplify the effects.

I walk, cycle and drive.

To all the twats banging on about cyclists not following the rules, I'd just like to point out that I have had to stop cycling in my home town because following the rules almost got me killed more times that I care to remember. Have you ever tried to cycle using correct lane discipline? Ever taken the last exit off a roundabout on a bike? Ever indicated right, so that you can take up road position just to have the cars behind you knock you off when they try to "just get past" before you block their way. Have you ever been knocked off at a junction because a driver didn't notice you at his left hand side or just plain forgot and then turned left when the traffic lights went green? Have you ever gone into a car on a roundabout because they didn't give way to the right, because you are a bike? I have had all of these thing happen to me or I have seen them happen.

While I'm at it, to all the twats who cycle and jump lights, jump on and off the pavement, break the speed limit (I know you don't have to have a speedo, but most do these days) hurl abuse at car drivers when they are not in the wrong, but harm has nearly come to the cyclist. Just stop it! I used to have to drive in Oxford and it is truly terrifying the amount of (often) pissed up, suicidal idiots who think that because they have a bike they automatically know how the road works and that they always have right of way over everyone else.

The main problem is that it seems acceptable to society that 3000 odd people get killed every year on our roads, this is NEVER reported in anything except a local newspaper, but one teenager dies having taken an E and drunk a fatal dose of water, or a child goes missing in another country and the Daily Mail/Sun/Express et al will make sure you know about it for months. Why can't the news reflect what our priorities should really be?

This proposal is clearly a desperate attempt to save the current scameras policy. Most have been misplaced, either to maximise revenue, or in the mistaken belief that a garden gnome would not have been as successful in reducing casualties at "black spots" (regression to the mean). If Gifford had proposed 20mph camera-enforced limits in the neighbourhood of schools, I might agree. But a universal urban 20mph limit, justified by alluding to that latest marginalised minority group (Guardian reading cyclists), simply smacks of the panic that seems to accompany megalomania.

"Buy a smaller engine. Do you really need 2L?"

That's a joke, right? That's a bit urging people to save electricity, and telling them they should "buy a smaller TV. Do you really need 14"?".

In the UK, we're currently subject to a road safety campaign that features a gruesomely 'dead' child saying "if you hit me at 40 there's an 80% chance I'll be killed - if you hit me at 30, there's an 80% chance I'll live". So what are we to make of this new 20mph limit? Surely not that this campaign is based on bollocks?

Road deaths: "try to think of it as evolution in action".

Wow I've never felt so alienated from my fellow Reg readers. USA vs the world, or I.D. vs Science has nothing on the rubbish many of you are spouting. Those are children leaving school you are talking about for crying out loud. Killing children is "evolution in action"? Hello?

cars and motorbikes have MOT's, regular servicing and pay tax to be on the roads,

I saw several bikes (human powered) with bald tyres, no lights (and dark clothing) and the brakes looked fairly knackard as well... if that was a car under new rules i would have had my car taken off me and crushed..

cyclists also do not pay insurance, MOT, have to take any form of test, have no laws governing saftey equiptment (i beleive there motor powered variants have to have crash helmet). and more importantly they dont pay road fund TAX.....

The cyclist i belted the other week ramped off the pavement straight into the side of the Alfa and straight over the bonnet, luckily i was already hitting the brakes because of the idiot bin lorry hitting brakes and slamming it into reverse to get down a side street, but the point being the cyclist was trying to beat the lights because his where on red and mine were on green and he thought it was perfectly acceptable to pop onto the pavement at high speed and ramp of the pavement and expect that i had enough time to swerve into oncomming traffic and apply my brakes.....

as for the speed limit I regulary speed (only 10 or so miles over the limit and yes i know its wrong and im probably the spawn of satan) and i have driven in 3 countries all without a single accident since passing my test and thats only because i have a respect for my car my attitude towards others and every 18 months since passing my test i ring my instructer and ask to book a two hour slot so he can tell me my current flaws and how to correct them BSM you have got to love them.

As regards to the laws petaining to what people can drive and what they cant i say every 17 year old must pass there test and spend the first year on a moped/cycle of no more than 50cc with six monthly tests on the bikes so that it can be checked for Mods. after this then they can drive a car of no more than 1.2 litre until three years have passed and must complete a further 50 hours of driving before getting a pass plus or advanced driving course before being able to drive up to a 1.8 then a furher year in this car followed by a further test in varying weather conditions and skid pan courses. and at least 10 hours on a foreign road (i.e continental Europe) before being able to drive any car they like.

Also MOT's should check for mods to cars as most of them should be banned as well as stupid stereo systems where all you can hear is bass, and at that volume and with that much bass where is the fidelity and the enjoyment in the music, I personally like music but when it becomes a repetative noise this annoys the hell out of me, why should i buy a car where i cannot hear my own engine at any speed to hear (and smell) the guy/girls 4 cars in front with the farttubes (apparantly its sounds like someone farting in a coffee can) which reduces the cars backpressure and torque (to the point that the backpressure that the engine needs to run) and makes it less economical lessens the horsepower and sounds crap..

its all about attitude and education no the speed.

Yes i agree things have got to change but not to the extent that i would have to be confined at the mercy of the system..

Just in case your wondering I'm a 25 year old, not all us young ones have the same idiotic views on driving.

/.Rant over

Someone hasn't done the math. Reducing speeds in urban areas is going to increase poloution both from increased journey time, and increased petrol usage.

Car fumes are a bigger killer than road death. This would make it worse.

Ah, some drivers have an altered view of reality! Wrap yourself in metal and sprint, it's pretty-much all you care about. Try to deny it when you have examined your own attitudes. Try to forget the responsibilities of driving 2 ton at 60.

The 30mph signs? That means 'people live here.' Yep, LIVE - as per the full dictionary definition. If you're rushing through my habitat, you better be ready to stop if my child or my cat walks out in front of you. We are NOT just an inconvenient slowdown along your daily trip down the asphalt.

Got a GPS to warn you about the 'silly speed cameras', push the pedal down inbetween. I'm really not going to be nice if you scream to a halt as you suddenly stop thinking about that argument with your boss and see my bike 10m in front.

"They keep giving me stupid points!!" Could it be because your, and other drivers, priorities are worth poo behind the wheel?

Which bloody planet does this genius live in?? We have probably the most meddling, interfering, regulating, ANNOYING government ever!

I know! We'll just keep everyone at home! And if you absolutely MUST go out on the road we'll put an automatic speed restrictor in your car. I reckon 5 mph ought to be safe enough?

For heaven's sake... :P

It's all very well to say "Road deaths: "try to think of it as evolution in action"", ha ha, oh yeah, funny, you're a really funny bloke. (We'll take it as read that I banged on at length about the difference between evolution and natural selection.)

The real problem is that each one of those pieces of "evolution in action" is a person, an actual human being, possibly one of your friends or colleagues, an old colleague of mine a week ago as it happens. What happens when the evolution in action is your wife, girlfriend, parents, a friend maybe, your son or daughter possibly? Does it help when you are comforted with words to the effect of "look on the bright side, it's the best for the gene pool that they died" no? ok, then shut up and keep your ignorant comments to yourself.

Gifford says going on the road should be no more than twice as deadly as DIY.

Simple, lets just make safety shields on power tools illegal. Sorted.

I'm another one of those people who both drive and cycle. I have to say that the vast majority of drivers are courteous, keeping a good distance from me when I'm cycling. Also, I find that the vast majority of cyclists that I see behave appropriately. I don't want to see the groups getting antagonistic towards each other because of a minority of bad examples. Let's try to respect each other, and remember that we all make mistakes on the road at times.

I do want to say a couple of things against some of the more extreme comments made above:

1. Saying that children are entirely responsible for being injured by a vehicle if they step out in front of it is kind of missing the point that THEY'RE CHILDREN. They haven't got as good an awareness of their surroundings as adults do because they haven't had as much experience. It's up to adults, particularly those travelling at speeds that can cause serious injury or death, to be ready to respond to other people's mistakes. Yes - teach the children awareness, but don't abdicate your own responsibility to make allowances for the inevitability of other people's mistakes. Driving at the limit of one's ability will inevitably lead to accidents. I remember running into the road once when I was about 4 - I know that I caused a car to brake, but I don't know how close it got. (I was running away from a neighbour whom I found a bit scary).

2. You can't safely cycle 12" from the kerb. The edges of the roads aren't maintained well enough, and are too full of debris, for that to be safe. It's even worse in the rain when you can't see the potholes, and the drains and inset manhole covers don't offer much grip. So it'd be really nice if drivers would just hold back for a bit. Yes, I know the sense of frustration at being held up when there's an empty road ahead, but try to think happy thoughts and overtake when it's safe to give a 3' gap, or a bit less if you're in a low-sided vehicle and travelling just a few mph faster than the bike. In my experience of driving around Reading, it's rarely more than about 20 seconds.

By the way, I hate seeing cyclists going past red lights too. Act a bit more mature, will you?

20mph in narrow residential streets is a no-brainer.

But we don't need speed limits/cameras for this. We need to get rid of the asshole drivers. More policing and a heavy-handed "three strikes and you're out" policy would do the job. It only takes a few rogues to make the roads unsafe.

Removing them is better than draconian rules for the ordinary driver.

A much better way of reducing road deaths is the "shared space" concept successfully used in Holland. By deliberately blurring the transition form road to pavement, drivers voluntarily go much slower and are more alert. The problem with British roads is that they are designed purely for maximum vehicle throughput, while completely neglecting the fact that they are used for other things (shopping, recreation, cycling, etc.). This is fine for trunk roads, but for the majority of narrow city streets, railings and large radiuses are just plain stupid. They are an invitation to speed.

PS. Why do bigots on web forums always forget to use question marks. Or use too many???

Deceleration, acceleration, deformation and penetration can all kill but not speed. Of course inappropriate use of speed can lead to fatalities, but it's not the speed that kills. And "kill your speed" is a stupid slogan. If it means anything at all it's "Stop". It would certainly reduce accidents if nobody went anywhere.

If we can't enforce the present limits what's the point of reducing them? Let's get the enforcement right first.

Anyway if we're going to review all the speed limits we should get rid of obsolete units once and for all, and metricate them. For road safety purposes it would be much more appropriate to have speed limits in metres per second. Kilometres or miles per hour are only suitable for journey planning.

Does this sort of thing remind anyone of the Burbclave idea in Stephenson's Snow Crash?

I just can't stand when people think that they should mess with natrual selection.

Mandatory : All cars to have a 15cm sharped steel spike mounted in middle of sterring wheel.

Mandatory : All cycle helmets banned.

Thin out their numbers!

When cars were first invented, they were required to travel no faster than 5mph and have someone walking out front with a red flag. I fully expect to see that law re-introduced in the very near future, with the flag-bearer being some duly-appointed government rep (outsourced to some corporate toady company in which the Hon. Members have shares). These flag-bearers will cost 20 quid an hour and be mandatory for all drivers.

So time to buy yourself a horse. The way the UK (and Australia too for that matter - we're down to 40kmh in many suburban streets now) are going, we'll be back in the Dark Ages by the time I retire. Will I still be allowed to keep my pitchfork and scythe or will those implements have to be licensed as well?

Can someone please remind cyclists that the rules in the Highway Code apply to them as well.

As the author rightly points out, the majority (at least it seems that way in Bristol) seem oblivious to traffic lights, one way systems, pedestrian footpaths, wing mirrors... and most of them seem to be even more oblivious to the fact they may have done wrong, resorting to monosyllabic insults upon the sight of impending death at the hands of oncoming traffic or the sounding of the horn.

I believe that car drivers are among the best road users. Its the pedestrians and cyclists who seem unable to look both ways, use lights or even walk on the path provided who require the legislation. At least thats what i yelled at the bloke who stepped off the path and into traffic in front of me on the A37 this morning.

When are they going to introduce "Shit Driver Cameras"? Far more accidents are caused by people who drive inappropriately (either right up someone's ass, or pull out without looking, or are simply clueless) than speed alone. Yes, speed is a factor in some accidents, but those who claim it's the root of all evil are sadly deluded. There should be much tougher tests for drivers, not just banned ones but EVERYONE on the road. Half of the drivers on the road should have their licences revoked from what I see EVERY DAY on my travels.

As for cyclists who mount pavements (I almost got run over by one on the pavement the other day), run red lights, and other anti-social riding activities, they should be lined up against a wall and shot. I have NO sympathy for anyone who fails to realise that they are in an extremely vulnerable situation. Where I live, there are cycle paths all over the place, yet cyclists (particularly the ones donned all in lycra) prefer to kill themselves on the roads.

The answer is to have MORE traffic police, and for them to put a higher priority on urban areas, not only pulling speeders but also concentrating on other poor drivers. I have even been in cars being driven by people who drove like I mentioned, and when asked they didn't even realise they were doing anything wrong.

So I say every driver in the UK should have to take an intermittent "reminder" test in order to keep their licence, and there should be a licence for cyclists as well. I know any cyclist will flame me for this, but any idiot can ride a bike without any clue of road laws, and there is currently no way to punish dangerous cyclists.

Oh and here's a fact....more pedestrians are killed or injured on the pavement by cyclists than by cars.

Don't think anyone's ever died from being hit with a stationary object, not even sure if it's possible.

Oh, and to all the posters who reckon cyclists run reds, just watch as the lights cycle from Amber to Red; how many cars continue through the junction when amber means stop?

...there would be mass hysteria.

So why is it acceptable for us to be killing the same number of people on the roads every year?

Wake up you lemmings. Stick to the speed limit and leave a stopping distance. Is your life so meaningless you're willing to throw it away speeding?

Well maybe it is. How sad.

I say use cameras and get rid of the ramps. Also, standardising on 30mph but enforcing it would be far preferable to 20-zones.

As already said, speeding makes little or no difference to urban journey times, all it does is get you to the next set of red lights quicker. But then, most speeding is masturbatory in nature and has nothing whatsoever to do with being in a hurry.

"I saw several bikes (human powered) with bald tyres"

And your point is? Tread on a *road* bicycle tyre is there for one reason, and one reason only: Marketing.

"Cyclists...dont pay road fund TAX"

Nor does anyone else, unles they're completely stupid. The Road Fund was abolished well before WW2. You're thinking of Vehicle Excise Duty, which is levied on MOTOR vehicles, and which goes into the hands of the Exchequer just like income tax, VAT, fuel duty and the money which that abtsrad Darling steals out of my pocket every time I buy a pint of BEER.

"no laws governing saftey equiptment" (sic)

The are obliged to have brakes, and lights and reflectors if cycling after dark. What more do they need? Ah, wait, I presume you believe that cycling helmets perform some useful function. I have news: they don't. See http://www.cyclehelmets.org

Ride a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live.

A pint of whatever he's having.

..that this is a bloody ridiculous idea.

I'm a cyclist (mountain biker - not the skinny tyred roadies) and a driver and I've seen a fair share of idiots on the roads.

On three occasions I've been over the bonnets of cars on my bike because the driver 'didn't see me' (despite it being in broad daylight) - one time it was over a bloody police car and they actually suggested I ride on the pavement! WTF! The most recent time was a car turning into side road in front of me without indicating (I was at the petrol cap when they turned) - the driver started having a go at me for damaging her car and said 'why do you f**king cyclists insist on riding down the side of the road' (I calmly pointed out that if I rode on the pavement I'd get arrested, and if I rode down the middle of the road I've get killed by someone in about 5 nanoseconds).

Since I've been driving, I've been forced onto the centre of a roundabout twice due to people talking on their mobiles whilst driving, had to avoid cyclists riding two abreast (usually roadies, but mountain bikers are also guilty), and have screeched to a halt due to retarded pedestrians walking out into the road without looking (sometimes I think they're just suicidal).

As has been said many times - speed isn't the issue. It's the complete morons that seem to populate many areas of the UK.

I remember the first year in primary school (I'm 25 at present) where we were taught how to cross the road safely; Look right, look left, LISTEN, look right again - then cross if it's safe.

I'm really starting to think that something I read a few weeks ago makes a lot of sense (can't remeber where I read it unfortunately); UP the speed limits to 40mph - if you want to survive on the road on foot you'll have to run away from the car at 10mph - It'll soon sort out the child obesity (forced exercise) and weed out those too damn stupid to breed!

Hehe - Roadkill icon!

Why not simply ban people from leaving their house - that would cut road deaths to zero overnight, and also slash the crime rate. It would also make the job of policing us much easier, since anybody on the streets without a permit could simply be rounded up and shot.

"We are living in a period when central government appears reluctant to regulate unless absolutely necessary."

Wowser, that's just wrong on so many levels.

....is Electric cars. Those light-jumping, lycra-clad bastards won't stand a chance when cars are silent!

BUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(I nearly ended up as "Prius Pizza" the other day while walking with brain in neutral.)

i dont think the goverment realise most of the tiem driving into city centers is slow as hell because your in a traffic jam, what there saying is its the law to be in one!!!

I'm not going to get into a nit-picking row with anyone. I've done the "speed doesn't kill" / "cyclists are idiots" / "cameras are not the answer" / "pedestrians had it coming" before, and it never gets anywhere, and all it does is piss people off.

Most of the people who were from The Safety Brigade ("most speeding is masturbatory in nature", "Ban anyone from driving who thinks speed does not kill", etc) seem to be just churning out the same message that the Government repeats. Speed kills, they say. No it doesn't - inappropriate speed for the area you're driving through kills. Stop repeating the marketing message that the Government put out to justify the revenue cameras, and start facing up to the facts that it's actually human inadequacy that causes road deaths, not a number. And the human inadequacy doesn't have to originate from behind the wheel.

I hit a young girl once while I was driving down a single track road with cars parked down one side. The girl ran out into the road from between parked cars, and I hit her.

I was doing less than 10mph (yes, I hadn't left first gear), because that's all the road would allow. It was bumpy, narrow, and poorly lit. It was signposted 30mph. Good job I wasn't doing the speed LIMIT, and had assessed the road situation correctly, eh? The girl slumped down onto the road, jumped up, and ran off crying. The parents were grateful for me, and my driving skills, and gave the girl a right bollocking.

A good driver can assess whether or not they are doing an inappropriate speed by thinking about the following things:

- what's round that corner?

- if that corner has something in the road, can I stop in time?

- what's infront of that parked car?

- why are there feet under that car?

- where did that football come from?

- where's that cyclist going?

I find myself being a "what if?" person when it comes to driving. As a result, I'm 25, I've been driving now for six years, and the only near misses I've been involved in are through the stupidity or inadequacy of other people.

It's nothing to do with wrapping myself in metal and speeding around. If you look out for me, I'll look out for you.

Make eye contact with the kid in the road chasing the football, and let them know that next time they might not be so lucky.

Make eye contact with the cyclist to the side of you, and give them a nod to let them know you've seen them. If they haven't seen you yet, give a quick pip of your horn. That's what it's there for.

Open your eyes, people. And that goes for the people doing 50mph on the motorway, as well as the people doing 50mph past a school. There's nothing automatically dangerous about going faster than the numerical speed limit that the Council have arbitrarily placed on the road you're on.

Ignore the speed limit signs. Look at the actual road and decide for yourself if it's even safe for 30mph. Match your driving to the surroundings, and we'll all live happily ever after.

Peace.

Allow them this 20 mph limit. Then next year, draw a graph, pointing out how the line goes downwards, signifying less deaths on the road, and equate this to the work of the politician, applauding their work. Suggest that further reductions in the speed limit would mean that this line would fall further.

In ten years time, the speed limit will be minus 70 miles per hour, and car manufacturers will be building cars with back to front chassis. When the politicians ask about the negative number of deaths per year, just blame it on immigrants.

@ Justin Stone

Eh? Seems like someone didn't read the comment or forgot to change the title...

The kid who rides in front of a bus knowing it is there and headed towards him at high speed deserves to get hit - it is quite obviously his fault. If the bus driver makes no attempt to react after spotting, or doesn't even spot the hazard in front of his vehicle he is not paying proper attention or in complete control... unfortunately the "Why should *I* do anything about it, he shouldn't run into the road, should look before crossing, blah blah whine whine" excuse doesn't prevent accidents or save lives. It might earn a conviction or two though.

Ah, and what about the dickhead drivers who willingly floor it over a zebra crossing when traffic going the other way has already stopped and there are already peds in the road? Peds fault I suppose? Let me guess... road is made for cars, not people? With an attitude like that it's probably in everyones best interest that you take the bus.

Make everybody do 2 years on a motorcycle (under 125cc as legal) or moped. Motorcycle instruction is FAR more comprehensive than any car test. You do only get 2 days, maybe 3 tuition before the test, but they are intense, well structured, and cover FAR more than your driving instructor will in 6 months of 2 hour lessons.

Spacial awareness is a necessity, as is CONSTANT observation of your surroundings; Other motorists, poor road surface, blind bends, blind (and sometimes open) junctions, and even pedestrians all have the potential to do you REAL harm. You will learn how to break effectively while remaining in control of your vehicle (if you don't, you break both your legs. How's that for incentive?), you learn to slow down in the wet and poor visibility (if you don't, you stack it over a hedge into a field and nobody finds your unconcsious body for 3 hours), and you DEFINATELY learn about visility at night.

It's so simple it's stupid it's not implemented.

Here here, bad drivers are the main problem, those that think it's acceptable to try and do 60mph around a blind 90 degree bend on the wrong side of an NSL Road are more of a problem then those that think it's okay to do 80mph on a straight clear bit of NSL road. Give us more trafpol, that'll help sort things out.

I nearly had an accident in Leeds the other day, which I'm sure I'd initially have been blamed for because I'm young (26) and driving a sporty car (189BHP Lotus) - although I was doing <10mph around the roundabout when someone pulled out in front of me when I was 5ft away - I even had my lights on. Technically it wouldn't have been my fault, I was already on the roundabout, but you can bet your life I'd initially have been given the blame, because of my age and the car I drive - fortunately because of the car I drive, I managed to stop in time without hitting the old bloke in his Rover.

I'll admit to going over the speed limit, if the conditions are appropriate - but never EVER in a residential area or 20/30/40mph limit - They are generally there for a reason. Personally I favour the IoM system, restrictions in built up areas, fast as you feel is appropriate outside of them, with more trafpol around, so if someone is driving recklessly, they get pulled and potentially booked for it.

I don't know about reducing the speed in urban areas from 30mph to 20mph but more should be done about pedestrians crossing the road.

On a daily basis I see people (mainly school children) running across a busy 40mph dual carriage way because they could not be botherd to use the pedestrian crossing a few yards away.

The rule of thumb of 10% plus 2mph would be difficult to stick to. At 70mph, 7 + 2mph = 79. That's not too bad.

When doing 20mph you could theoretically be done for doing 24mph. Does that mean we will all have to have our speedometers recalibrated? The accuracy at these low settings is debateable. Absolute madness when most cars will do this speed in first or second gear. You would need to constantly stare at the speedo - still, not a problem if you hit anything as long as you're doing "the correct speed"!!

These days it seems like a guy can't go out and crap up the environment without cyclists, pedestrians or yucky buses being inconsiderate enough to use OUR roads. And now, the fascist Government want to punish motorists just because they've broken the law! Why don't they arrest the VICTIMS of road traffic accidents. That would be much fairer.

What's the country coming to? Are they going to start arresting murderers next?

Signed

A.B.M. Victim

PS. Please put lots more coppers on the beat because although laws should be optional for me, I've seen some people wearing hoodies hanging around, and they should be arrested for breathing funny. Thanks.

I read recently that you can get a £1000 fine for cycling with dodgy brakes. Seems fair. Maybe we should invent a camera that can detect this! Or should we just put more police on the road?

I'm a cyclist and driver (although I never do both at the same time) and see bad behaviour by both.

I don't ride in the gutter - it's too full of holes and junk. If I did I'd have to be swerving in front of cars to avoid potholes that could unbalance me, knocking me off right in front of the cars that insist on hovering on my back wheel.

My driving has improved since I started cycling. One thing that drivers need to be aware of is potholes: Your suspension evens most of them out. The same is not true of cyclists/motorbikes. We're on two wheels not four and have a far higher centre of gravity - you'd have to be seriously thick to fall off a car. Honestly, it feels like you need a mountain bike to get around Bedford because of all the potholes.

Oh, and I also leave plenty of space between myself and parked cars. Too many drivers just open the door without looking. I'd rather not be bounced into a lorry just to save a driver looking in his/her mirror and over their shoulder. The airbags on bikes are made of tarmac.

It's not just car drivers - it's passengers too. Twice in the last few months I've had someone open the passenger door right in front of me. If my brakes hadn't worked they would have had my handlebars in their gut.

I have another pet hate. When you're driving down a road and there's a cyclist/motorcyclist waiting to turn right across your lane, why not stop and let them across. Do you realise just how vulnerable a stationary cyclist is in the middle of a busy road?

MOT for bikes? Interesting idea, worth investigating.

Cyclists: Red means STOP. Cars can't stop as quickly as you. Cars can't turn as quickly as you. You WILL lose the argument with a car.

So put simply, all road users need to give each other a bit of space and obey the rules.

What is happening to this country? it seems nowadays that we cant do anything anymore. We are told to do this and told not to do that but do it like this and this is another great example of that they think that reducing the speed limit to 20mph will stop idiots driving 50mph on roads. All this will do is make these idiots be 30mph over the limit rather than 20mph. Not to mention the majority of the country that obeys the speed limits will all be driving round in second gear which means ours cars will be burning more fuel and adding more to the green house effect. I suppose burning more fuel keeps the government happy as they receive more tax. So the question is can you afford to put more fuel in your car as fuel prices keep climing to £1 a litre at the sake of a meaningless 20mph speed limit change?

when i ride my bike on the motorway at 76mph, in the dark, in icy conditions, changing lanes in heavy traffic over those nice bumpy cat's eyes... absoloutly stark bollock naked.. i'm actually riding perfectly legally..

funny how the law considers this safe, but then considers 26mph dangersous in good visibility, on a deserted road, on a dry day, with 4 wheels, wearing a crash helmet and full body armour.. dangerous

preposterous!!!

"British bike lanes and paths, as anyone who's used them much knows, are rubbish. Their layout almost always prioritises the convenience of motorists over that of cyclists; pedestrians and drivers ignore them most of the time"

What a load of absolute tosh. All the cycle lanes round here (of the ones that are roadside) cut across the car lane at the head of a junction or traffic lights. Cyclists (and I've noticed those on motorbikes use them too) can happily manouever their bike right in front of a car at a junction. Thats not really giving priority to the car now is it? Not to mention the general sense of pedestrian priority in the road - if a pedestrian gets knocked down its automatically the drivers fault unles proven otherwise. I was once involved in an accident where a kid playing chicken in the road ran out in front of my car; luckily the van driver behind me saw the whole thing and pulled over to relay exactly what happened to the copper who turned up. I say luckily as the local residents were all baying for my blood - even though not one of them had witnessed the event - assuming that I had intentionally hit the kid.

"Rather, some kind of numberplate-reading average speed kit would need to come into play."

With the nature of rabbit warren-esque road layout of urban areas - especially modern housing estates - SPECS would be extremely difficult to implement and even if a system could cope with multiple car routings it would no doubt be considerably more expensive than a few thousand more gatsos in each county.

As said, teach road safety to both drivers, pedestrians and cyclists. Improve the design of roads and physical safety measures (speed cameras are NOT physical safety measures). Pedestrians on pavements, cyclists on dedicated cycle lanes (not in a roadside gutter painted red), and cars on the road. Stop trying to make them all work together in the same space. Then we might be on the right track for making the roads a safer place.

WWW.SAFESPEED.ORG.UK could well be the UK's leading authority regarding the true effectiveness of speed cameras and their side effects.

Speed enforcement is not all it is hyped up to be. The people who run the speed camera system have been lying to us.

Take a look at www.safespeed.org.uk/rttm.html for an example. The campaign website is full of data you should read.

Check out the lively forums, in fact there's a thread on the subject here:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16029

you know who you are, the van/lorry driver or supercar short dong kiddie, all too hurried in your "important" job to stop for obstacles like cyclists

hello, dickhead, just because i'm a cyclist, doesn't mean i'll move to the side, so stick your horn up your stoopid working class arse! If you want to overtake that's your problem, not mine. And yes, i will drive in the middle of the road when i have to do a right turn 100m down the road, see?

feeling like judge dredd perhaps, judge and executioner? just think how much time you'll be scrubbing my blood off your windscreen, and all the nightmares! This is the real life jack, not PS2. Save yourself the psychotherapist money and stay clear!

I drive for a living and I whole-heartedly agree with others` sentiments regarding cracking down on law-breaking road users other than car drivers. Almost every day in my town, I nearly mow down pedestrians who step in out in front of me, as if on a death-wish mission. They are invariably kids, who seem to think they`re invincible and just stride out in the road, staring defiantly at me, as if I have some magical way of stopping dead - dead being the operative word. If I protest and point out the error of their ways, I normally just get a mouthful of abuse from the boys and just a giggling response from the girls. Have they been watching too many video games perhaps? More mature pedestrians, who should no better, suddenly make a dive across the road against their flashing light, when the rule is that they should not attempt it and get quite annoyed when the inevitable hooter sounds (usually from me!). Why aren`t they prosecuted, as in America, I believe, when pedestrians don`t cross a road at the designated place. (Jaywalking?). Young motorcyclists weave in and out of traffic with sudden bursts of acceleration - quite often on motorways at great speed. You don`t too many chances to survive a mistake on a bike. Pedal cyclists are equally at fault. They seem to think they have a god-given right to plonk themselves in front of me at a red light (assuming that they are one of the few that actually take any notice of traffic lights), causing an obstruction.

Traffic laws should apply to all, not just the motorist.

The local council doesn`t help the situation one iota, installing so-called traffic calming and traffic lights at the drop of a hat, seemingly oblivious to some of the consequences of traffic build-up and jams. With the amount of extra fuel being burnt, the schemes are not very "green". Speed limits near where I live have been lowered out of all proportion to any risk - even on good, wide roads where there have been no incidents. One major "A" road from my town has had the 40 m.p.h. limit on the outskirts jacked down to 30 and a 40 m.p.h. slapped on the previously unrestricted rural section for several miles all the way out to the nearest village where there only a handful of buildings on the way. Needless to say, the existing 30 m.p.h. limit through the village has been extended out even further into equally rural areas. I really don`t understand the theory, especially as jokers like "white van man" seem to think that absolutely nothing applies to them, anyway.

Well after reading all of these comments I decided to sign up and not be a coward.

With anything like speeding there is no easy way of working things out, speed, tax, public transport, cyclists Vs. motorists. As always there is need for compromise and that compromise unfortunately has to come from the Government though they often fail to address the needs that we personally like.

With the ever increasing restrictions on speed, tax on fuel and continual nannying by the government 'for the people', I can only think to the extreme where by the little freedom we currently enjoy is slowly being sapped under the guise of safety and what is best for us.

The smoking ban was a prime example when the government decided that people cannot think for themselves and under the health guise it was deemed that there be a total smoking ban - never mind giving the punters and establishment owners a choice or at the very least a time limit with to, say, section of an area of the bar so that service still be allowed without forcing people into the rain and cold. How long before we see an Orwellian type scenario where we're tagged and scanned upon entry to a cake shop, only to be told that "I'm sorry Mr Smith but according to your current scan, your weight dictates that you have exceeded your confectionary quota for this month therefore we are unable to serve you."

It will be a sad day when the government impose such restrictions - but that said, according to the latest study, people seem unable to help themselves but become obese thus shortening their lives by the quoted 13 years - you can see how, through the people's lack of responsibility, the govenerment is forced to act on behalf of the people because of the people.

Just my opinion.

I find myself agreeing with both the "speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed does" and the "slow down" lobbies.

What I think all this boils down to is co-operation and consideration.

Example: There's a zebra crossing in our village, it's 100yds from the 60mph road out of the village. Consequently a proportion of vehicles seem to think that it's ok to do 35-50mph through village. Now the problem is that it's hard to stop for the zebra when someone walks out onto it (as it their right -see highway code) when you're doing 50. So a small proportion of these speeders simply don't stop, forcing crossing pedestrians to have to leap for their lives.

All that's needed is a little consideration, slow up a little. Be prepared to stop. Have a little patience for the old dear crossing the road. Remember - you'll be old and doddery soon enough (if you haven't been killed by a marauding, red light running, cyclist)

My daily commute is 12 miles. It often takes 45 minutes or more. Average speed = 16 Mph. So if they just measure average speed I'll be ok, even though that includes doing 90 Mph on the motorway for a couple of miles.

What is the difference between killing someone and steeling their life?

The last year I had a car as part of my job, I drove 54000 just for work. No idea how many "personal" miles in did on top of that.

So given an average speed of 40MPH (if you lucky) I spent about 23% of my waking life stuck in a car. If you drop the average speed to 30MPH, that figure would go to over 30%.

So you kill 7% of me.

At the moment far too many people die on the roads - OK I accept that.

But cutting the speed limit and slowing everyone down, actually removes more life.

If everyone was forced to suffer that kind of annual mileage, a 10MPH drop in the average speed would in effect kill 7% of the population!

What percentage are currently killed?

The Motor Industry hugely overproduces vehicles 'cos the National economies are driven by profit and jobs and idiot politcians who will not admit that the system is ( statistically fellas ) Out Of Control ! reducing the speed limit or putting pinch points at 10 metre intervals is like making a hol