Well, there's proof you CANNOT fight terrorism by inventing restrictive rules and forcing everyone to adhere to them strictly.

Terrorism is insanity. Insanity cares not about rules - you want to fight it; use common sense, not automated false-positive systems that give a sense of security to those in power, and a burden (or worse, an ruthless invasion of person/privacy/life) to everyone who's not.

Just my 2 overvalued eurocents ...

Wouldn't it be a shame if someone accidentally posted the email address of MyTravel executives here and we accidentally sent them mail complaining of their over zealous politically corectness gone mad?

Like most elite professions there are ten times as many people qualified as there are jobs for them.

Paraffin-lamp bus drivers are eminently disposable commodities.

Going against the company Ops Manual is just begging for a career change.

The cold world of commercial aviation is somewhat different from the warm fluffy boy's club that those who fly at the taxpayer's expense experience.

I was once told not to bother applying for an AFI position as "You know we can get people to work for nothing in return for the hours in their log book?"

I hope this guy has learned a valuable lesson.

Surely kids are shown the flight deck all the time or is that something else that's a thing of the past in this increasingly po-faced world?

(as there's a hint of Airplane about this I feel compelled to add "and don't call me Shirley")

A colleague of my brother-in-law (who has been for 30-odd years a commercial pilot) in the heady days of 2002 made an incautious choice of comments to a checkpoint guard. He had some pointlessly forbidden item - a nail file, or razor, or some such - while passing through the pilot's check, and made the mistake of arguing with the jobsworth in question by pointing out that if he was interested in terrorism, not only did the pilot's cabin contain a large fire axe but that, as the pilot, he didn't need sharp objects to crash the plane. He was arrested and sacked without any form of appeal.

.. we have idiotic pen pushers and bureaucrats and bean counters dictating to the Pilot In Command how to operate his aircraft safely.

What utter bs!

"Not allowing a pax in the front office". Do these arseholes expect a terrorist intent to get into the cockpit to even take the slightest note of this rule?

If a PIC can decide how to get a plane safely down flying instruments only, he sure as hell is more than capable to make other safety decisions on board.

He is after all the primary safety "device" on that plane.

...zero tolerance = zero intelligence.

"Zero tolerance" is a bogus policy employed to save lazy and timid administrators from having to exercise their judgement or stand up for their decisions.

It's bad enough when a schoolkid is suspended 'cos he voluntarily handed in a pocket-knife he had accidentally taken to school. But this is far worse - a guy's entire career has been torpedoed by the wankers who hide their worthless selves behind the shield of "zero tolerance".

well said sir!!

. . . still a shame they didn't throw the **** out of the door after the tour of the flight deck, a fine opportunity missed I fear :)

(but why a lab coat? just wondering like)

Come on, common sense if the best guard against terrorism.

Is "a terrorist" going to be a premiership footballer invited up to the cabin by the captain on a plane full of friends and team mates, or is it going to be an unknown forcing their way up with guns aboard a public flight with 100s of people they don't know.

Unbelievable.

"We have a zero tolerance policy towards any actions which could endanger the safety of our passengers and employees."

In that case how do they justify taking off?

Again, the Red Tape has saved us from a terror attack.

I'll sleep more soundly now.

I have just sent this email to feedback@mytravel.co.uk :

Dear Sir or Madam

I am writing to inform MyTravel of my disgust in the treatment of your

former pilot Pablo Mason. To sack a pilot for allowing someone to

conquer their fear of flying is an outrage. It is absurd to suggest

that anyone's safety was jeopardised by allowing a well known

personality into the cockpit on a private charter flight. The irony

that the pilot, sacked on the grounds of 'anti-terror' rules, should

be a Gulf War veteran is a fine one indeed

This has tarnished the already shaky image of MyTravel and you have

done yourselves no favours in meting out this draconian punishment.

Please ensure this email is passed on to MyTravel management.

Surely it was not the pilot who told them about this.

Captain Mason: You ever been in a cockpit before?

Robbie Savage: No sir, I've never been up in a plane before.

Captain Mason: You ever seen a grown man naked?

Sorry, I couldn't resist it. I'll get my coat.

"...actions which could endanger..."

I know Robby lives up to his name in his professional career, but if he was minded to stick up for the friendly PIC, couldn't he sue for defamation? Basically the airline have accused him of being a terrorist.

Long gone are the days when anyone who wanted was invited up to the cockpit for a tour by the friendly captain. These days travelling by commercial airlines is one of the worst experiences you can subject yourself too, from the ridiculous overbearing security at airports, massive invasions of privacy (passenger flight data sent god knows where, being finger printed in the US and soon to be Terminal 5), then spending hours stuck in cramped seats before going through it all again at the other end.

If you want to look out of the front of a plane and really enjoy the experience of flying, get yourself along to your nearest general aviation airfield, for a pleasure flight or a trial lesson. You'll never want to go near a spam can airliner again.

On the one hand, surely stopping people entering the cockpit is a good thing (tm) You can't foresee every occurence, and it's not just the imaginary hijackers that pilots would need to be concerned over, it's the slightly pished bloke who stumbles during a spot of turbulence and nudges a control, the whiny kid who wants to press buttons and distracts the crew for a split second when a bird (usually a frozen chicken) flies into the engine or the overly litigious American who stubs her big toe on the door frame and tries to sue the company.

Punters have no business in the cockpit these days, gone are the days when kids would be invited up (I was one of them, who went up to the cabin as our plane was over the Hoover Dam). I enjoyed the experience, but it's one that I could have lived without. Pilots have enough to keep them busy without having to worry about cockpit security, Leave that to the Sky Marshalls (does anyone else think that's the title of a kids TV series about blokes with robotic horses which fly?)

Before you all sharpen the axe to bury in my back, yes, giving the pilot the push for doing this was a tad extreme, especially a "sleb" on a charter flight.

I recommend reading Pablo Mason's autobiography - he's a bit of a living legend and there are some good tales from his more impulsive years in the RAF. I especially liked the following episode, which I may or not be remembering 100% accurately.

While enjoying a nerve-calming beverage in the Officers' Mess bar after a particularly life-threatening front-line mission, he was requested by a desk-jockey officer to go and change from his flying gear as it was now after 6pm (a usual rule of etiquette). Being more than a little wound up, Mason reacted by loosing off a few rounds of his service pistol into the ceiling of the Officers' Mess.

I'm guessing the good folks at MyTravel were not aware of this before disciplining him...

said footballer has recently converted to a fundamentalist brand of insanity and decides to crash the plane?

OK, so we all make the tacit assumption that someone who earns millions a year for kicking a small round thing about a big green thing with his friends isn't about to top himself, but there's plenty of evidence to put the lie to that.

Richand successful people go off the rails all the time. I'd rather they didn't do it while they are in the cockpit of a plane.

(Obviously, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but the point is good)

About 20 years ago, flying into Switzerland on a commercial airliner, I asked if I could have a look in the cockpit. After all, I was a 12 years old and curious.

The captain agreed and even invited me to stay in the cockpit during landing. It was a great experience for me.

Nowadays the captain would lose his job, and I'd be declared a terrorist just for asking.

Any surprise then that I think the terrorists have already won?

MyTravel executive email address?

Personal addresses are hard to find, but a quick look at their web site (http://www.mytravel.com/) shows a few others:

pretravelservices@mytravel.co.uk

customerservices@mytravel.co.uk

feedback@mytravel.co.uk

They are also part of the Thomas Cook group, so there's probably more addresses you can find there.

Fire away!

I believe that mytravel are part of the Thomas Cook group. It would also be a shame if someone posted their email details somewhere too, so we could all complain about this petty-minded, idiotic, politically-correct lunacy.

"While enjoying a nerve-calming beverage in the Officers' Mess bar after a particularly life-threatening front-line mission, he was requested by a desk-jockey officer to go and change from his flying gear as it was now after 6pm (a usual rule of etiquette). Being more than a little wound up, Mason reacted by loosing off a few rounds of his service pistol into the ceiling of the Officers' Mess."

Clearly removing this dangerous and highly disturbed individual from the cockpit of a commercial airliner is in everyone's interest...

Just hope he didn't have the fish...

Good Point, or is it, is it really, really is it ?

Life is risk, it is a bit of a long shot to suggest that Savage could even spell fundamentalism, let alone set aside the pursuit of girls, cars and the delights of mamon for long enoug to convert. David Icke on the other hand.....

Your comments accurately portray the kind of spineless cotton woolism which makes the world a dull dull place. I ebt you never drive above 55, drink more than half a shandy or believe that in the real world every day millions and millions of people enjoy the rush that risk taking brings, and the rewards too.

Some are lucky, some are unlucky and some have great judgement we can trust and great skills for when things good bad (like pilots, surgeons or It contractors...)

...not terrorist.

Err, I'll get my coat......

George Bush and Tony Blair (yes I know he's not there any more - if he ever was) have won another one. Let's scare the bejesus out of everyone and use propaganda as much as possible to do so and get them to allow us to do anything they want.

The poor airline was probably scared of the Septics calling them terrorists if they didn't sack the pilot. I don't think they fancied the idea of a Yank coming up behind them in a fighter with a black and white telly in it and blowing them out of the sky all in the name of "friendly fire". So can't blame them really.

It's not the airline fault, it's the governments putting in dumb-arsed, half-cocked scaremongering, bullsh*t laws. All politicians are only interested in getting more control over people and terrorism is the perfect answer. Watch out, they'll soon be watching to see how many times you take a dump. Have more than one dump a day and you be branded a terrorist for trying to overload the sewage system. Make sure you put that cork up your arse.

This has all the hallmarks of a company who looked for, and found, an excuse to get rid of an employee who didn't toe the line.

I'm guessing the bloke wasn't enough of an ass-kisser for his bosses. Argues the toss a bit too much. Refuses to bow to management pressure, etc.

<i>"We have a zero tolerance policy towards any actions which could endanger the safety of our passengers and employees."</i>

If they're going to take it so literally, why are they allowing pilots to take off at all?!

Can someone PLEASE get started on an EU-directive which says that ALL laws, and ALL company policies should include the phrase "Nothing in the above law/rules should hinder any person from applying sane mind to the usage of these laws".

And, please, please, make brainless bureaucracy illegal and punishable by disintegration. Please?

//Svein

"About 20 years ago, flying into Switzerland on a commercial airliner, I asked if I could have a look in the cockpit. After all, I was a 12 years old and curious.

The captain agreed and even invited me to stay in the cockpit during landing. It was a great experience for me.

Nowadays the captain would lose his job, and I'd be declared a terrorist just for asking.

Any surprise then that I think the terrorists have already won?"

Indeed, I'm glad I got to visit the cockpit of a 757 we were in on the way back from Russia in 98 or 99. It's a shame about the current state of things really...

Yes, I too went up to the cockpit, on a BA flight to Milan in the early 90's - looked very cramped for the crew !

The pilot even tilted the plane so we could all get a good look at the Mont Blanc glacier.

I couldn't help thinking that all schoolchildren should have that kind of experience for their appreciation of geography ... the 'ripples' in the regions on either side of the Alps was a clear indicator of side-effects of mountain-building.

I completely agree with My Travel's position on sacking the pilot.

The passenger, some of you may not have realised, was a footballer; there was therefore a very large risk that letting him anywhere near the front of the plane would result in an uncontrollable dive.

Sorry, I'll get my coat ... TAXI!!!!

A Mytravel spokesman said: "We have a zero tolerance policy towards any actions which could endanger the safety of our passengers and employees."

How dare these suits at Mytravel pass judgement on a man who has had probably had to make life-threatening decisions for breakfast in his military career. What a bunch of utter, utter wankers. They are indeed hiding behind the catch all of "zero tolerance" (aka "phew, we can outsource our thinking to someone who gives a fuck, thank god for that, it was hurting our brains")

This is another example of the Big Babies syndrome which increasingly permeates every breathing space in society these days.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/bywaterbig.htm

...and so it would seem that they have a zero tolerance policy for actions which pose no threat whatsoever.

Shame!

Wasn't there a Russian airliner that went down basically because of kids in the cockpit ? (granted as always, combined with a dozen other mistakes).

"The passenger, some of you may not have realised, was a footballer; there was therefore a very large risk that letting him anywhere near the front of the plane would result in an uncontrollable dive."

Like it!

I will never ever forget, as a boy of 7 or 8 in the mid 80's, being allowed into the cockpit of an aer lingus 737 from Heathrow to Dublin. The view alone on that one 5-10 minute experience inspired me like no other moment in my life.

Probably shouldn't mention the pilot let me turn - yes, that's turn - the airliner... Albeit on the heading bug of the autopilot rather than control column... still, an awesome experience that sadly no other children - or adults - will get to experience.

I would like to thank my parents for conceiving my in the 70's so I would be able to fit this opportunity in before things got sooo out of hand!

Yes, cockpit security is vital on an airliner, but the captain - by DEFINITION - MUST be able to exercise judgement and intellect that he has trained so long and hard to achieve. If the plane is flying towards a large thunderstorm, or other weather 'issue', the pilot exercises his judgement (with help\approval from ATC) on how to proceed. Flying through a thunderstorm surely presents a threat to "safety of passengers and crew", yet the pilot is allowed to exercise his judgement and adjust his course/height/etc.

After all, a pilot is subject to the same basic law that rules us all - SURVIVAL! He is hardly going to do anything that puts his own life at risk, let alone the overpaid celebrities in the back of his jet....

Agree with another comment above - more to this than meets the eye, perhaps just an excuse to get rid of him.

Silly!

It might not make a difference but I dropped them an email and I will avoid traveling with them in future.

A serious lack of common sense is more hazardous to my health than the likelihood of any terrorist attacking me (What are the actual odds of a terrorist attack? I think people have lost their way...)

Does anyone know if this double-decker plane has windows at the front of the top deck where people could pretend to be the driver, I mean pilot? Or would it scare the fundament out of people during landing.

They could even put in a mock-up of the cockpit on the top level and give kids (including 34 year olds) a chance to have a play, while the real crew and controls were left in peace. Or use it as a decoy for terrorists, allowing the crew to lock them in and depressurise it.

It is not the overpaid celebrity living in luxury that has any chance of going over the top and creating havoc and terror ending with multiple deaths.

No. The men living in luxury are much more likely to hire poor blokes living in abject misery, fill their heads with lies and nonsense about a magnificent Afterlife, and give them detonators and explosives so that they - the poor - go and snuff themselves voluntarily whilst creating havoc that end in Zero Tolerance rules that have an adverse effect on the rest of the world's sane people.

Bin Laden controls hundreds of millions of dollars, do you see him walking around with a belt of explosives ? Of course not.

Not that this is in any way a comment on the life and ways of that celebrity that is the involuntary cause of all the ruckus. It's just that it is highly unlikely that a man who can afford the luxuries of life is going to be the one to cause a terrorist scare. We are all creatures of comfort, after all. There are very few conflicts in our history that cannot be traced to the lack, or perceived lack, of some essential commodity. The conflicts simply grow bigger if the lack is more important.

No I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande

if so, i demand he be fired for letting el reg enter and stay on the flight deck.

> zero tolerance = zero intelligence.

Excellent! I'm going to have to use that one in "Crime and Punishment" debates when someone recommends Zero Tolerance policing! :)

Robbie Savage???? Star?????

FFS

Agree with the "zero tolerance = zero intelligence" comment.

As a former charter pilot I can tell you that we let people touch the control regularly.

You have Crew that is responsible for the safety of the aircraft. They make split second decisions every day. Mostly whether they want milk in their coffee... But they do make important safety decisions, and carry responsibility for them. Now, letting someone into the cockpit is a time honoured tradition and staves off the mind-numbing boredom of a long flight, because the truth is that during the cruise part of the flight, the pilots are just trying not to get bored to tears. They enjoy the company, and enjoy trying to help someone (like with fear of flying).

Sacking him over this just means that they do not trust their crews to make decisions, which means the crews should not be flying at all. That company should be running hot dog stands, not an airline.

Robbie Savage is more of a star than you're likely to be. Getting to play at Premiership level is a fairly exclusive club.

(I'm already internationally famous, so I have nothing to prove)

:-)

To all of the above whining about the injustice of all of this, please help out the airline industry by rewriting the rules of who is and is not allowed on the control deck of a commercial aircraft while in flight. (I know, I know, actually contributing to the answer instead of just making smartarse comments or whining sounds a little like work but, come on, it might be fun.)

I'll start you off: "Only active flight crew is allowed - except:

Semi-famous sports personalities

Really good friends of the pilot

Really good friends of really good friends of the pilot

The pilot's grannie.

Really good friends of the pilot's grannie

People who once met the pilot's grannie

Yes, I am very much in favor of the 'no-one except the active flight crew' and I am very much in favor of the 'break this rule and you're fired' protocol. Just as I'm very much in favor of finishing my air travel simply uncomfortable and pissed-off but not actually dead.

There was indeed a Russian airliner that went down as a result of school children in the cockpit. However said children were related to the pilot (or co-pilot, can't remember), in the pilot's chair and in fact the entire escapade could have been avoided quite easily had any of the crew remembered that there is a fail-safe device in the auto-pilot that makes it so the auto-pilot will disengage if the pilot attempts to bank the airplane more then a certain amount of degrees.

Had the pilots realised this, instead of trying to find out why they were banking further and further, they could have simply straightened the airplane out straight away and reenabled the auto-pilot.

There was also a case of pure idiocy, again at the hands of Russian pilots, which disregarded their collusion avoidance system and flew directly into another airplane at the instruction of the ATC, who was instructing the Russian airplane to descend, while the collision avoidance system was telling them to pull up. At the same time, the other airplane reported going into a descent because of their collision avoidance system alerting them of another airplane in their vicinity.

That's why the regulations now specifically state that said collision avoidance system's instructions are to be followed even if they contradict ATC instructions.

Yes, there isn't much room in a cockpit -- they used to have jump seats for spare crew members but they don't allow anyone up front these days so I doubt if the space is still available.

Aviation is currently a nasty, potentially life-threatening experience. (Ask the husband of the lady who died recently in Phoenix after being 'restrained' due to complaining too loudly). Its the epitome of everything that's wrong with modern society, from the airports full of goons armed to the teeth (as if firing weapons in a crowded terminal would be a smart thing to do), lousy customer service enforced with a 'complain and we'll treat you like a terrorist', airplanes that are nasty to fly in -- the whole thing's a crock. The aviation professionals work with a metaphorical gun to their heads, the livelyhood at risk from any bureaucrat's whim. The people making the rules aren't affected by this -- you little people probably don't know this, but First Class is more or less extinct, its been replaced by fractional and charter where you don't have the delays, the threats, the general nastiness.

I suppose its a metaphor for life, isn't it? Big Bro' needs control.

... on Sept 11th the terrorists didn't start by being invited to the cockpit ?

This whole story just proves how much the terrorists have won, that's how it works - they spread fear and get the politicians to impose ever more strict and stupid rules and regulations that strangle the target.

Yes, over the years there have been a few cases of people hijacking planes - but generally it's involved armed force, not an invite up front ! The people making these stupid rules just have to sit there and drive their desks - and the biggest risk is from saying the wrong thing in a news interview. The guys (and gals) flying the planes have an interest in it arriving safely at the other end - after all, in a crash they are usually nearest the impact !

Oh yes, and I'd second the comment about going to your local small airfield and getting a trial lesson - seat up front and a wonderful view. How many schedules services will fly over your house for you just so you can see it from the air !

@ Jeffypoo

IIRC the kids weren't just in the cockpit but in control of the plane... after disengaging the autopilot. I think one of the last sounds on the voice recorder was the pilot getting back in his seat!

@ John A Blackley

Get a grip man, this wasn't yer average flight. It was a charter with rich people on board so it was pretty likely that no-one was going to do anything adverse. Maybe you should invest in a large amount of cotton wool for your next foray in to the outside world...

...welcome to the UK

...astoundingly narrow and unsurprisingly British

...sometimes UK law make me wonder where it all went wrong!!

...ah well, at least you guys are giving us a fucking laugh in the U.S...

...Jesus would be locked up today in the UK

...Anyone wonder Britain is so hated by every country except Britain? (politicians excluded....)

Oh wait, these comments are from the stupid homeless-in-Florida story. Folks, please keep in mind there are stupid people everywhere. The U.S. has five times the population of the UK, so naturally we have five times the number of people at both fringes of the bell curve. Try not to hold it against the rest of us, and we'll do the same.

So you're in a smallish plane completely occupied by friends and colleagues, no strangers at all that might be terrorists waiting to yell "Durka Durka Jihad Muhammad" and crash the plane.

One of your friends is scared of flying and the pilot decides that a good way to lessen that fear is to remove some of the mystery of what goes on behind the cockpit door (and perhaps allow said person to see they're not pissed and stoned and "playing chicken" with mountainsides for fun).

This is wrong by you because of the risk that one of your friends may cause the plane to crash.

If that's the level of trust you have in your mates, I'd hate to be one.

Remember, this was not a large airliner filled with a random mix of unrelated people who did not know one another. It was a smaller flight with people all known to each other.

While I might be concerned if the pilot let some random passenger I didn't know have a poke around the cockpit, I'd certainly have no problem if I was on a charter flight with, say, members of a club to which I belonged and I had met them all through the course of the club and the pilot let one of them up into the cockpit.

OK, not strictly true. I'd have a problem - likely to be a tad jealous unless I got to have a nosey 'round the cockpit, too.

Don't encourage people to wrap themselves in cotton wool, it's highly flamable. You'll get sued for wreckless endangerment, or even worse, get sacked.

There are some rich people out there who own there own in effect large commercial sized aircraft but don't necessarily fly it themsleves (see what John Travolta parks on his drive for example). Can they enter a cockpit they own during a flight?

What about Stelios at Easyjet, can he enter the Cockpit given he owns the plane?

Is George dubba ya allowed into the cockpit of Air Force One during a flight?

BTW I'm not calling George a terrorist ... honest .... really

Robbie Savage is more of a star than you're likely to be. Getting to play at Premiership level is a fairly exclusive club.

(I'm already internationally famous, so I have nothing to prove)

:-)

But he's a footballer and as such a complete and utter waste of time and part of a huge plan to ruin any decent sportsmanship in the world and also a reason there's bugger all to watch on TV on a weekend!

Sad that the Rugby World Cup is nearly over :(

... when one simply had to give one's business card to an air hostess (oops - member of cabin crew) and ask politely if she would ask the pilot if one could visit the cockpit. I have sat in a jump seat during cruise and for several landings in B747, B737, A300, A320, A330, and others. As I am a researcher into flight control systems, these experiences have been priceless.

The good old days are no more, alas. (As someone said, the terrorists have won.)

When I was a kid in the 80's, like other people I was allowed up front into the cockpit of an international jetliner. Can someone tell me exactly how many airplanes have been hijacked and crashed because the flight crew voluntarily asked someone onto the flight deck? Under 10? Under 5? Under 1???

Society is the loser as we pointlessly suck all of the joy out of the world.