> "But, as they have said before, the vast majority of consumers want

> the latest and greatest technology, and that includes Windows

> Vista."

Uh huh. Go ahead and spin all you want Micro$oft. There's a reason many big companies are still hanging on to Windows XP, and many computer-literate people are resisting Vista. Existing drivers not working, extra-draconian DRM and copy protection, and choice between the pricing similar to that of a small motorcycle or a lemon version of the OS... No thanks.

If I were going to buy a new PC, I would buy it from Dell and the decision would be made based on the operating system.

I bought, a few months ago, a notebook PC for my wife and it came with Windows Vista Home Basic, a dual core processor, 512 M of RAM, and trial and junk software. When I turned it on the first time it was unusable. It was so slow that you cannot even move the cursor. It spent about 10 minutes reading the hard drive without a known purpose. She was so disappointed that she would prefer a pirated copy of XP than the legal version of Vista.

She investigated in the internet and found that going to XP was not easy. There are not drivers for XP for this new PC. Well, maybe there are drivers but not from the PC manufacturer. So, the idea was discarded.

First, I had to eliminate all junk software that starts as soon as the PC boots. Then, I had to buy 1 GB of RAM; and now, without running any software the PC is using about 800 MB of RAM. At least it is running fast enough.

Well, this is not the only problem. I have found also that some software that we have already just does not run and I am talking (or writing) about legal software.

At the end, I have a new dual core PC with 1.5 GB of physical memory and the ultimate operating system and don’t see any advantage. My Sempron desktop is much faster with either XP or Ubuntu. So, my next PC will come with either XP or Linux.

One question: where is the command.com in Vista? Some times I need to use telnet or ftp or just run ipconfig and I could find a way to run the cmd.

I'm worrying about the future when only Vista is available on a new PC (yes, I know I should get a life). I have a retail XP disc and also a retail Win2K disc gathering dust in the back of my desk drawer and was wondering about using these instead.

I know that MS Windows wont let you 'backgrade' your OS (why not? I've paid for it!) so it'll have to be an HD scrub and fresh install. However, I'd need the drivers, etc. Can anyone tell me the best/easiest place to get 2K or XP drivers for this kind of exercise?

Also, will XP activation still work after Microsoft officially stop supporting XP? If not, can I get my money back?

Any serious advice will be most welcome.

Here is my only experience with Dell Computer.

First off, I build Linux computers only, but they are a little costly because they are top drawer systems.

This story happened last week on Thursday April 12 in Portland, Oregon USA.

Richard, a friend asked me if I could build a Windows XP system for his daughter in California. (She is a student in a university)

Her Windows computer was very old and was dying, I had just rescued all of her files from the computer as the hard drive had failed... I used a Debian Linux system to force it relinquish its data to rescue efforts successfully.

He asked me to help build a new system for her. My price was higher (With the Retail Windows XP I could get) than they wanted to spend and I offered to help them buy an “appropriate” XP system instead. I know that the sweetheart deals made by the big boys like Dell in bed with Microsoft could best my price anyway, using Windows.

Richard, I and my wife went to a Dell Direct Store at the Portland Lloyds center to help Richard pick out and buy a computer around the $1000.00 price point.

We found this pathetic kiosk which apparently was the “Dell Direct” store in the middle of the mall pathways. Never mind the aesthetics, we are on a mission.

I previously saw the web site promoting only the Microsoft Fistula system and was sure that I could get them to relent to my authority on the subject anyway.

We went to this Kiosk with me wearing my Red hat cap. (just to give them advanced warning of my flag, I knew that the Debian Logo would not be recognized so... Red hat it was for the cap.) And we presented our case and desire to buy a “quality” Dell computer with Windows XP Pro installed with StarOffice or OpenOffice if possible. ISO Standards are important after all.

After wearing down the poor little attendant that we speared and finally getting him to give up on promoting the latest DRM infection from Microsoft, they showed us the Open Source solution which consisted of FreeDos, at the same price as the full meal deal, but without the patty in the middle (Windows). He finally showed me that indeed as a corporate customer they would offer a Windows XP pro system in the $3,000.00 price point.

Even I, could build a dual boot Linux based media bending road monster eating the Internet, with little windows tagging along for laughs, for that kind of money... but that was not the point.

It was a sad and dis-hearting adventure for all of us and we all were angered at the treatment we got. Dell is Dull as far as I am concerned.

We waved a final goodbye to the hapless sales person who was in no position to close an easy $1000.00 sale because XP was verboten.

We walked out and went to a competent VAR in the area... Budget Computer in Beaverton, OR. and for under $1000.00 they built a good dual core computer for the college girl in California. With MS Windows XP Pro licensed and all of that other muck... Oh yes with OpenOffice and Firefox as well. Happy ending after all :).

So now I hear that Dell will offer that XP Stuff again. Too late bucky.

Dell is still offering XP as an option on those systems in Australasia - Aussie & NZ at least.

I've just built a new, very high spec PC which is more than capable of running Vista's new fancy (and unnecessary) graphics, but I've put XP on it.

Until Vista has at least one service pack under its belt (it certainly looks like it needs it) and until Microsoft stop trying to extort twice the price for it in the European market, I'm not going to touch it with a bargepole.

I read the news elsewhere and headed over to Dell UK pick up a new machine - no sign of XP unless I go the small business route.

One (more) sale lost.

I bought a Dell Inspiron 1501 with Vista this week. It wouldn't load up as Windows Genuine Advantage listed the Dell-provided software as pirate. So it fell over.

Naturally I rang the poor helpdesk and they let slip that around 10% of the Notepads sold by Dell have exactly this problem.

My notepad, after a reinstall of Vista failed twice, is going to be replaced, something of a first for me in 20 years of IT for a software failure. I begged for any other operating system, but Dells rules say that us Europeans are just going to have to suffer Vista.

Best solution: Be prepared to complain and spend a couple of hours on the phone. Dell are pretty good but Vista is a dead stinking dog.

Can't wait to see how they'll spin the miserable lack of sales Vista will have generated next year. I mean, if Dell and other outlets are again offering XP on new PCs, Microsoft won't even have new PC purchases to boast about.

It really looks like Vista is the gutters.

I tried to order an XP system with Dell on Monday in the UK, and after much persistence found an XP E521 deal, but in the small business section. It smells like a scam, looks like a scam, ...

Vista is also hardware hungry, which will raise the price of the machine. You can get more bang for your buck using an old OS like XP.

The reviews I've read of Vista are that although it is nicer than XP it is not enough to make you think "how did I ever get along without it".

I'm not going to spend half of my monthly disposable income to buy a product just because Steve Ballmer says it looks cool. Aero is hardware hungry - and does it really improve productivity? It's got to pay for itself somehow.

Upgrading XP to Vista is a waste of time, according to the reviews I've read. I haven't even seen Microsoft fanboys defending it... am I not reading the write blogs?

So what's the incentive Microsoft? The OS is not so brilliantly different that it doesn't look like XP service pack 3. The safety features have already been cracked and IE has holes in it too. XP can be patched up with free AV and firewalls (and Firefox) to be stable enough; I've never had a virus infection and suspect that most virus infections are a problem encouraged in the region between keyboard and chair.

Their only hope is to stop selling XP and *force* consumers to "choose" Vista. Hopefully by then the hardware sellers will have rolled out Linux boxes as a factory pre-installed option so we can choose "second hand XP license please".

Apart from the obviously clueless first poster who didn't check compatability and also seems to think it's normal to have any application using 800Mb of RAM (using Vista Ultimate now and it's eating up just over 300mb of the 512 I have in it) - has anyone else who posted actually used Vista?

Andy: "You can get more bang for your buck using an old OS like XP."

Enjoy DOS - it's so much faster than any version of Windows or even Fedora with KDE!

Regarding security - you're wrong. Research Vista security before making b*llshit statements. The security hasn't been broken. The only issue so far in the past 6 months since it's release is the cursor issue which using Vista default settings (IE7+ Protected Mode) it won't cause any harm or even work.

Cost - yep, MS are bending us over and shafting us by essentially doubling the price. Although in fairness XP Pro and Vista business cost the same £ for £ - take inflation into account and technically speaking Vista is cheaper in the UK compared to XP by a reasonable amount.

Right from the start i knew vista was going to be a overblown piece of crap just as Windows ME and the Ps3 was/is :P!

I used linux atm 'cause i've enough of windows and their silly ways. I feel vista is the straw on the camels back for micro$oft.

"Manufacturers will only be able to pre-install XP on systems until Jan. 31, 2008 when Microsoft will force them to switch no matter what internet denizens ask for."

Well, Internet denizens have nearly a year to convince OEMs to start selling PCs with alternative OSes, then, don't we?

Or people can simply stop buying new PCs if they don't really need them. I'm sure Dell, Gateway, HP, and IBM would really, really thank Microsoft for causing PC sales to plummet.

Sure, Vista is pretty and shiny, but at this point I still prefer XP (or even better, Linux). Vista is too expensive and, frankly, annoying. I'll wait a year before I seriously consider "upgrading". By that time, the hardware required to run Vista will have fallen to a reasonable price, and Microsoft will have had time to hammer it into a halfway-decent OS.

I used Vista for several months from my MSDN subscription, and I would never buy the product. It's bloated, full of copyright crap and over the top graphics.

If I could play the games I wanted on Linux, I'd go there tomorrow. (foxy :) )

Place your order by phone in the UK and you can order XP.

Thanks Steven,

Two things:

1) Google for what Joanna Rutkowska demonstrated at the Black Hat conference in Las Vegas. Okay, so it was on a Beta kernel and has likely been patched. But Microsoft had been touting -that- kernel as secure and stable (just as they are now touting their current one). It was part of their hyping to say the kernel was stable. When XP was released they hyped it's security features too (or have you forgotten that).

2) The ANI exploit allowed hackers to install arbitrary code. I think you're sweeping this under the carpet by saying it won't cause harm. What was Microsoft's own ranking for the exploit?

XP is faster than Vista. Your strawman argument comparing XP to FreeDOS isn't really valid or useful. It's rather childish really.

Why should I upgrade my memory, video card, and spend a few thousand rand to get Vista? A cheap computer will run XP faster than Vista without losing any vital features. You can't seriously expect me to believe that upgrading is financially sound?

Using a Microsoft 1st release has always been like being a Beta tester. Buying a new computer with Vista on it means that you have to spend more money on hardware and are likely to be exposed to all of the bugs that build up until the first service pack.

There is nothing that Vista offers me, as a businessman, that I don't have in XP. I don't want to spend all my money on buying the "latest and greatest" when I have something that works already.

I'm also skeptical about disposing of new hardware I buy. The Vista license seems horribly restrictive when selling or upgrading pieces of a computer.

Calling other people clueless also makes me suspect that you're just a troll.

I've got Windoze 2000 Pro running on all our systems because, it just works and works and works. We tried to upgrade to XP a few years ago but some of our critical applications didn't run with XP. I had to completely replace the mother board, power supply, CPU, RAM, Video Card, Ethernet, and Sound (ethernet and sound were on motherboard so I didn't need the slave cards) due to a power supply failure. I added a new DVD burner and an additional hard drive while I was at it. Turned on the power and up she came! Windows 2000 asked me to locate some drivers and I was up and running in a few hours. Try that with XP or Vista!! Nope, if it works, don't fix it. I'll stay with Windows 2000 until there is a REAL need to change.

Oh hey, Mike F, hows it feel make sweeping, generalising statements with no backing or even a trace of intelligent thought?

There's no more room on those bandwagons my friend. Move along.

I am a computing professional accustomed to building my own PCs, installing my own OS etc. I have a friend who runs an AMD Athlon XP 3000 with an ATI Radeon X1850 with 1Gb of RAM (I know I repaired it last). He has now been using Vista Ultimate since 1 week after its release and before this he was running RC1 or Beta 2 (I can't remember). About a month ago 1 of his 512Mb DDR RAM sticks died which we removed leaving him with only 512Mb. I warned him that Vista may now be on the slow side and he'd have to put a hold on the gaming until he could afford a replacement. He has shown me that even with 512Mb of memory Vista runs fine with the Aero interface. He happily opens several programs (Firefox, Office 2007, Media Center etc.) or plays games on his PC and has no problems with slow response, he is constantly surprised with the performance of Vista. He still plays games that are 1-2 years old with adequate performance (those that are compatible) and even with a paltry 512Mb he is still happy with the performance of Vista. Now I'm no Microsoft fanboy I'll be sticking with XP at least until I build myself a new PC, however I am getting tired of reading all over the net that Vista is virtually inoperable with only 512Mb. It just isn't true (though personally I still wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the lightest PC user.)

"By Steven Hewittt

Posted Saturday 21st April 2007 17:52 GMT

Apart from the obviously clueless first poster who didn't check compatability and also seems to think it's normal to have any application using 800Mb of RAM (using Vista Ultimate now and it's eating up just over 300mb of the 512 I have in it) - has anyone else who posted actually used Vista?

Andy: "You can get more bang for your buck using an old OS like XP."

Enjoy DOS - it's so much faster than any version of Windows or even Fedora with KDE!----- (cut)"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHEHEHEHEHOHOHOHOHAHAHA

thats funny.... ahh I needed that.

Thanks so much for the enterntainment...

"Ignorance is bliss" they say!

I'm not sure how carefully Dell is really listening. I spent a fruitless couple of days trying to find out whether Dell even offers any computers with Linux preinstalled. I was unable to get an answer to what should have been a simple "yes" or "no" question. My guess is that they don't offer Linux, and want to try to work me around to buying a Vista box.

Maybe they're responding to the complaints about Vista, but they apparently aren't persuaded about Linux (yet).

I would consider buying an XP computer as a last resort. I would not consider buying a Vista computer. I'm not sure I'd accept one if it were offered to me free.

You want to run command line on vista? Click start, type it into the "quick search" bar thingy at the very bottom. Enjoy

And speaking as a helldesk guy, F VISTA IN THE FING B.

There's a reason I told my 60-year old father to make sure his new laptop will have xp on it.

Hey James C I can make "sweeping claims" if i wish after all they are my opinions!

Go get a life

Mike

If you want a sure-fire OS, try Linspire. It looks like Window$ but you have the surity of Linux. I use it and besides the irritating part of not having things like wireless drivers, I have found it to be top notch.

If Linspire classes up its act and gets drivers to blokes like myself can get wireless working without an act of Parliament, it will knock a hole in Micro$oft business. And... NO DRM !!

"You want to run command line on vista? Click start, type it into the "quick search" bar thingy at the very bottom. Enjoy"

A little research and patience would have shown that the Start Menu properties allow you to add the run command back, it really bugged me too but it didn't take long to find an answer, however it is really worse than just a hard to find run command...

I buillt up a brand new machine especially for Vista, well above required spec (Core2 Duo 2GB RAM etc), I got given Vista Ultimate at a partner event I attended, so nice clean install away we go...

Well I am running XP now. Why? Drivers, stability application support and performance. Contacting the suppliers of the hardware devices and applications that don't work was responded with "we are working on it, check back in 2-3 months". It had been years since I had seen a real blue screen, now I have made up for it.

Since being back on XP everything is back to normal, everything works, no blue screens and XP on a brand new machine really rocks!

I would never pay for Vista, heck I don't even use it when I was given it!

At the minute, I don't have Vista. Indeed, I will be resisting it for as long as humanly possible. I've never been impressed by fancy graphics or stupid interfaces. I want something that runs quickly, does as it's told, and doesn't fall over. At the minute (and I never thought I'd say this when it first came out), that's XP Pro, which is chugging along happily on my rather powerful workstation. I've stripped it down using nLite to get rid of all the crap I don't want, and what's left is a ridiculously fast and stable installation. That's how a computer should run - well, unless you're a Microsoft employee, obviously.

Vista's a big bag of pointless crap, and Microsoft are once again abusing their market position by forcing "customers" to upgrade to a product they neither want nor need, which in turn contains "features" that only help Microsoft.

Unfortunately, I will eventually end up on Vista. Why? Because I'm a gamer. Big time. Games are the reason that my workstation is so mind-bogglingly over-the-top. I love my games, and therein lies the problem. While Microsoft's monopoly may no longer exist on office workstations, they still have an absolute stranglehold on gaming. I want my games, but to get them, I'm going to have to get Vista.

So I'm going to hold off for as long as I can. One year at least, maybe two. Basically until SP1a (because we all know SP1 only makes things worse) has arrived and games start coming out primarily for Vista. (Halo 2 doesn't bother me - Halo's crap.) Then I'll get a copy, use vLite to rip its guts out, and dual boot it with a proper OS so I don't have to use it all the time. That's the only reason I'll ever get Vista, and the only way I'll ever run it.

I'm sure there are millions of gamers out there who feel exactly the same way.

Ok right, for a start the whole high memory consumption this is crap. There is an article posted on Datacrash which is an extract from the performance teams blog regarding this.

http://www.datacrash.net/reviews/reviews/50mb-free-memory-on-windows-vista-explained!.html

I installed Windows Vista on my Dell D810 and spent an extra £12 on a 1GB readyboost drive and it works like a dream. The only non standard driver I installed was the latest ATI Driver for my screen card.

Thus far I have had no problems at all with my Windows Vista. My machine performs well, all of my games work, all my programs work, etc.

I can't believe I am sooo lucky that I am one of the only people whose OS works, perhaps the rest were installed by a bunch of amateurs!!!

Is it not possible to buy a comuter from Dell with either no OS installed (buy OEM yourself and also miss out on the 'bonus' bloatware installed by DELL), or ask for Linux? Or is Linux only avaliable for business users. Oh yeah one more - get a Mac. :)

I just built a new PC taking advantage of the AMD price cuts. The System isn't underpowered by any measure. 6000+, 2Gb RAM (4Gb at the end of next month), 256Mb ATi 1950XT, M2A-VM motherboard. You can see where i'm going here, it's a decent spec gaming box, well above the Minimum requirements, and should be fully supported by Vista.

I sat there in front of it using XP Home Edition because that is the OS i have most licences for (All legal as I build boxes for folks). At this point I've also got Vista 64bit to install later on. So i sit down to install Vista on the 2nd partition, it scrolls through the setup process then i get a BSOD. I do a doubletake and try installing again, BSOD again. I think that maybe something is wrong with the disk so re-download the image and burn it to disk again (MSDNAA Customer). 3rd attempt, it looks like it's going well and IT BSODs again. At this point I wonder if XP64 will install on the rig. I get the ISO, burn it to disk and it installs 1st time without complaint (though i did annoyingly have to boot from the XP-Home disk and run the fixboot and fixmbr commands to get rid of any Vista droppings). Someone else I was chatting to had the very same problem with his Retail Copy using almost the same hardware (Slightly slower CPU and more RAM).

I'm staying with XP until it drops out of the support loop, i did the same with W2K, and i'll stick with XP for now thanks. It's a pity I can't play games on the Suse box or I would be doing!

I have been using Vista for a couple of weeks now and its fair to say that, although I have not managed to give it a proper test (my wife wont get off my computer!) it seems ok to me.

My only beef with it was that the shutdown button (power off?) doesnt actually shut it down, it puts it into standby. I had to go through a lot of screens to change that.

I do remember when XP first came out, lots of people bashed it for being too simplistic and "Tellytubbie". Everyone was going to wait for Service Pack 1 before they bought it, etc. Now it seems to be the OS that everyone will stick with rather than go for Vista...except for the guy running 2K. 2K is fine, all our PC's at work run 2K 'cause it just bloody works!

I think there's too much Vista bashing going on as usual, just because its Microsoft. Its fair to say I would move over and give Linux a try if they made it easy to use, plenty of drivers but most importantly, games support. If Linux supported the games I play then I would certainly give it a try.

For those sitting on the fence, wait for SP1...although I think Microsoft will likely rush this out as well.

For those who have an open mind and if you can get hold of a "copy" then give Vista a go. If you dont like it then go back to XP.

However, as far as choice goes with Dell or any other supplier, we shouldnt be forced into an OS just cause Microsoft want their sales figures to look good. Give us a choice with the old and new OS's that are still supported, I.e, XP and Vista. We should also have the option of no OS installed. Those people who want Linux are probably advanced enough to install and configure this themselves.

Hello:

The company I work for recently ordered a Dell Laptop for me to use on the road. Due to our develoment environment, it had to include WindowsXP, as all our development tools (and indeed, our production software) require it. We placed the order via their online store, as a business purchase, and made sure to select XP as the operating system.

The order confirmation e-mail we received confirmed the requirements as ordered; the online purchase tracking system reassures us that XP was included; and even the shipping manifest mentioned it. However, when we booted the machine, sure enough, there was no XP, only Vista.

When confronted, the Dell representatives made up excuses, but wouldn't solve the issue in a satisfactory and quick manner. We settled for wiping the machine and installing XP ourselves.

-dZ.

"I installed Windows Vista on my Dell D810 and spent an extra £12 on a 1GB readyboost drive and it works like a dream. The only non standard driver I installed was the latest ATI Driver for my screen card."

You just don't see how ludicrous that is, do you? Vista is such a memory hog that Microsoft had to invent a system whereby users could jerry-rig their systems to run with it via bloody USB drives!

If Vista doesn't use massive amounts of RAM, why is that needed? Why does the creator of vLite (who I will plug again) reckon he's saved 600MB of RAM usage with his tool?

Let's be honest here: if you need 1GB of RAM just to run your operating system, with nothing else on it, then that operating system is bloated. No two ways about it. It might be bloated with lots of shiny things that keep you happy and distracted while it runs off with your right to manage your own system, but it's still bloated. Does any other operating system use so much RAM to do so little?

Under the very heaviest loads, such as really powerful games and the like, my rig only just uses the same amount of RAM as Vista does just to sit there. That's bloated.

So far I have seen many comments on the price difference between Vista and how it makes a system so much more expensive you would never waste your money. Well, just a tid bit of information, according to the Dell website, there is no price difference if you choose XP over Vista on the machines. Another side note, this change is ONLY for business class machines, not for their home users.

Personally, so much of these arguments just remind me of the exact same arguments we all heard for every OS upgrade I've seen. Of course the hardware requirements are higher than XP. They are not foolish enough to write the OS for last year's systems, or really even this year's low end systems. They wrote it thinking ahead to what you will be running next year and the year after. Same as any other developer. The systems you buy from now on should be running Vista easily and smoothly. That said, yes, there are major problems with Vista right now. Most of them are driver issues because the third party manufacturers have not gotten up to speed yet (and now they are starting to look bad for that) but, while being their problem, is not M$'s fault.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

This is hardly surprising news when I'm running a fairly high spec PC with 2GB RAM and a 3.4GHz P4, and whilst it runs vista quite adequately, it's using 50% of the RAM just to run Lotus Notes, Firefox, IE and Messenger.

Time to buy up all the stock of XP copies while you can...

"Dell is responding appropriately to a small minority of customers that had this specific request,"

What about the small minority of customers asking for linux, or no OS? Could Dell please respond appropriately to us as well? When you have to sell software that is over a half-decade old just to keep people buying Microsoft on a new machine, we really get a look at who has who by the balls.

Were MS as powerful as they were a few years ago, you would have had to eat your Fista and like it. Dell would have been brought to heel rather sharply. MS is losing it.

I currently have a machine set up with dual boot Vista and XP. I've only ever booted into Vista twice since I installed it and I don't intend to use it until I'm 'forced' to by Direct X 10 games.

I still recommend XP and Office 2003 at work too - transparent windows (woo), ribbon bar (woo), neither has provided me with performance/productivity benefits during testing them.

After hearing of Dell bringing back XP, I contacted them about the possibility of having an OEM sent out for the inspiron i purchased 2 months ago. (it came with Vista Premium). My argument being that Vista made my laptop run like a dog and I couldnt use many of my insurance related software.

I received 2 different answers from 2 different customer service reps:

1) "We sympathize with your situation sir and as a valued customer, we can offer you a $50 credit which you can then purchase an OEM version of XP from our sales department for the same amount of money". When i tried to contact the sales department, they had no idea what i was talking about and referred me onto another customer support person who said...

2) "Sorry sir, but we are not offering versions of XP for customers who previously purchased their laptops with Vista ". After arguing for 10 mins and emailing the previous conversation to the sales rep, they then offerred me a further $50 credit.

It seems like the $50 credit tactic is one that has been allowed by upper management and as long as you say you're hacked off with vista, they'll give you it!!!

Free money....got to love it!